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Substitutions, Scandal and Conspiracy
I tend to agree with you Dave. A lot of my comments either get deleted or never post in this group for some reason or another, so I won't waste too much time elaborating LOL.

I think everyone's real beef is that Eggy was eliminated already. Fair and square. Now he gets a second chance?? Not to mention others had to forfeit while on travel during the other rounds....why is this round the exception?

Anyway, best of luck to Eggy, or Aliencat, or whoever will be building in round 5.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 4:23 pm
Thanks to everyone who stood up for me. I do not think the substitution is correct, but must also say that Eggys contribution was the better one. The victory is therefore ok. In the future I would forbid, no matter what lap, a substitution. For me, the Mocolympics are over, I'll keep them in mostly good memories, I am certainly not angry and I wish AlienCat and Eggy good luck for the next round.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 4:38 pm
My friend, I really felt about this matter too.
I see the difference between people "below" and "above" the law every day, and I really didn't expect to see the same here.
It is also a matter of disrespect towards people who got out for missing links, edited pics and other technicalities (although Chris personally used to warn many of us first), as it is towards people who simply dropped out who were not given that kind of chance.
Some of them would be on their right to demand a rematch.
Even worse, this sends a very sad message about some people are simply too good for the rules, and it casts an undeserved shadow over the event.
You need to know that these days, in Italy, some laws have been issued that remove completely some crimes in matter of finance.
These laws have been made retroactive, effectively putting an end to many trials, so we have people who committed a crime knowing it was a crime and then being graced by their politician friends halfway through judgement. This is why I personally felt so bad about this.
This is the 1st time I feel bad about losing in R3, I would have really liked to be able to drop out in protest.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 4:39 pm
I'd just like to remind everybody that eggy is just a substitute, After this round aliencat will comeback. So it's not like eggy's getting a second chance He's just filling in.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:02 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix

They're being moderated dude, watch the language.


You can't be serious? I don't use fowl language on this site.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:04 pm
Quoting Brian peczyna
I'd just like to remind everybody that eggy is just a substitute, After this round aliencat will comeback. So it's not like eggy's getting a second chance He's just filling in.


Yeah well that's kinda the point everyone is bothered by. That's saying that Aliencat is going to the next round by using someone elses build. Someone who had already been eliminated.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:05 pm
Quoting Brian peczyna
I'd just like to remind everybody that eggy is just a substitute, After this round aliencat will comeback. So it's not like eggy's getting a second chance He's just filling in.

This chance was not given to anybody who had to drop out before. It's in the rules: if you can't post, you're out.
Games are founded on rules, it's all about that.
Now, if the rules are there for all except one, or for all except the judges, this is not a game at all (I don't know if there's another name, though).

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:07 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix
Is that an avian reference? I think that the filters are pretty tight, you would be surprised what would get filtered.


No, a simple misspelling. LOL OK, well I will keep that in mind then. I didn't think I used anything questionable, but will be careful of what words I choose in the future.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:11 pm
Quoting Yuri Fassio
This is the 1st time I feel bad about losing in R3, I would have really liked to be able to drop out in protest.


Don't worry Yuri, you can substitute for Aliencat next round and drop out then. LMAO

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:18 pm
I'll go ahead and weigh in. I'm doing the olympics for fun. I volunteered to build in round 1 when Chris asked for a volunteer, volunteered in round 3 and would likely volunteer again if asked.

What isn't fun is doing a round without a competitor. This happened to me in Round 1 and defeats the purpose of the games.

There isn't a clean solution to guys missing rounds.

I don't see what is so different this round than letting Amber Flor in the games last round. She didn't have to build the first two rounds and would likely have more energy that someone who had.

If someone say Sean Kenney were to step in to the games in Round 4 that wouldn't be fair. It also wouldn't be fair to give 2x4 a free pass, although it probably would have been the cleanest.

Consistency is important. You can't give 2x4 a free ride if we had already established a replacement policy (i.e. Amber) in round 3.

Aliencat was not given special treatment. He was the first contestant to publically announce that he would have to miss a round. Other contenstants either just didn't post or dropped completely. He was the first to say I have to miss a round upfront.

This decision was made a couple weeks ago. Why are ya'll weighing in now and not then?
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:19 pm
Now wait a minute, this is no scandal, when aliencat originally brought up the issue of not being able to compete PHIPSON FULLY APPROVED of Eggy substituting, so that really levels any complaints you may have.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:31 pm
Quoting Heath 'kik36' Flor

Don't worry Yuri, you can substitute for Aliencat next round and drop out then. LMAO

lol!
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:32 pm
The whole thing is a bit strange. But as Eggy said, it was decided two weeks ago, so now it's done. Let's go on... I understand the various points of view but I won't enter the argument. MOColympics has to be stay fun, and even if some decisions are questionnable, we should try to don't focus on "negative" and stay cool. For some reasons, I'm pretty sure I'll lost in Round 4 for questionnable reasons too, but anyway that's life :-)

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:35 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix
there is some master plan involved


but dude, you dont understand, man! the oil companies control evvrything! the government has a car that runs on whater, man! it has fiber-glass air colled engine man and it runs on WATER!

Weather kicks ass!
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:49 pm
Quoting Crimso Giger
For some reasons, I'm pretty sure I'll lost in Round 4 for questionnable reasons too, but anyway that's life :-)

Interesting that you would think that....care to elaborate?

Eggy you bring up some valid points that I can't disagree with. Only real difference between Amber jumping in and your is that she was filling a hole and wasn't eliminated from the competition earlier. She is still building for herself, whereas you and Aliencat are handing off the baton.

To be clear, I don't think anyone is upset at any builder.....or even the judges really. Just perhaps that the rules need to be tweaked a bit more. We're only human, these things happen.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 5:59 pm
Quoting Heath 'kik36' Flor
To be clear, I don't think anyone is upset at any builder.....or even the judges really. Just perhaps that the rules need to be tweaked a bit more. We're only human, these things happen.


Indeed! Keep in mind this is just the second year of the MOC Olympics. Chris and company just have to tighten and spell out all the rules in the future. In the meantime, we should all just deal with the situation at hand. XD

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:03 pm
Quoting Heath 'kik36' Flor
Interesting that you would think that....care to elaborate?


I'm in the "Lego wears" category and I'm not sure that my entry will fit...
I couldn't tell more without giving top-secret informations about my entry, after all my opponent is your wife ;-)

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:11 pm
Quoting Crimso Giger

I'm in the "Lego wears" category and I'm not sure that my entry will fit...
I couldn't tell more without giving top-secret informations about my entry, after all my opponent is your wife ;-)


Understood. ;) She's definitely been racking her brain on it. It's a tough category! I don't envy either of you! ^.^

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:14 pm
Quoting Master Shifu Leo J

Indeed! Keep in mind this is just the second year of the MOC Olympics. Chris and company just have to tighten and spell out all the rules in the future. In the meantime, we should all just deal with the situation at hand. XD

Plus, I'm sure as the years go by, problems arise that no one thought of before, and new rules have to be made up.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:14 pm
Quoting Heath 'kik36' Flor

Understood. ;) She's definitely been racking her brain on it. It's a tough category! I don't envy either of you! ^.^


lol I'll probably post the result tomorrow. Good luck to Mrs.Flor :-)

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:19 pm
Quoting Crimso Giger

lol I'll probably post the result tomorrow. Good luck to Mrs.Flor :-)


Good luck to you as well my friend! I'm sure both results will be fun!

P.S She doesn't want to get wrapped up in this drama, but wanted me to pass on the well wishes to you also!
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:23 pm
I'm surprised no one has thrown out the Kanye West reference....allow me.

"Yoooo Eggy, I'm really happy fo ya! And I'm gonna let ya finish....but I gotta say 2 X 4 had one of the best builds of all time!!"

You're welcome.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 6:33 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix
The original player DOES NOT come back in, that person hits the showers while the substitute battles it out.
I don't see how that works in later rounds.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 7:35 pm
Quoting Heath 'kik36' Flor
You're welcome.
That was funny. I don't think anyone is taking this personally. In fact I was talking with Chris for a long time about it before even posting... trying to come up with better ideas on how to make it work next year.

I personally like the idea of having teams of 4 (2 afols/2 tfols) and a point based system so that one person out doesn't cause people to get the feathers ruffled. And will also help with evening out bad judgment or close builds. Yeh you heard me judges. Especially you Dave.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 7:38 pm
 Group admin 
Ok, where do I start? Let’s go down the list shall we?

“Why did Eggy get a second chance?”

He didn’t. He’s a substitute for Aliencat. When Aliencat comes back for round 5, Eggy won’t be playing anymore. Eggy was chosen as a proxy to stand in Cat’s stead when Cat couldn’t compete for the round. I didn’t suggest that Eggy be chosen. I gave Aliencat the choice as to who HE wanted to stand in for him. Cat could have chosen anyone that he wanted and he chose Eggy. THAT is why Eggy played this round.


“Why was Aliencat allowed to miss this round and still move on when so many other people were eliminated when they didn’t post?”

The short answer is this. The people who were eliminated in previous rounds for not posting did so because they were either scared to lose to the person they were up against, or thought that their “excuse” was a valid one. I got news for you guys, “I have soccer practice” “I have too much school work (While I post 40 sharpie modified clone troopers a week)” and “I have a planter’s wart” just are NOT valid excuses. I’m sorry. Aliencat was traveling overseas for the entire round and would not be anywhere NEAR his bricks for that time. Aliencat has also PROVEN himself in these games to be a VERY strong competitor in the first few rounds which is why he was given this choice. And, let’s be honest here. Would 2x4 REALLY have felt justified if he were just “given” a free pass at this point in the game? True, he lost the round (BARELY mind you. That was a tough call for me) but it’s better to put your best effort forward and lose with your head held high than to get by on a technicality. Anyone who advanced due to someone dropping out or not posting, make a gut check and tell me truthfully that you wouldn’t have rather actually “beaten” someone rather than be given that free pass.


“Why do you give your friends special treatment?”

I don’t, and anyone who thinks so needs to think twice. Let me give you an example. Last week, when I posted the round 4 matchups, two people whom I consider to be some of my BEST friends, Dave and Stacy Sterling were out of town on a business trip. They lost about 2 or 3 days build time because of this. I didn’t give THEM any special treatment or extend the deadline for them in any way. They missed a couple of days and that’s the way it was.


“Why did Amber get to step-in in round 3 without having to compete in the previous rounds?” or “the substitute issue.”

I always try to keep a substitute on hand for the Olympics. Last year, it was JD Luse that was my sub in case I needed one. Turned out that I never did, so he never played, but he was there if I needed him. For the first couple of rounds, there was no need for subs as many players were getting first and second round passes when someone didn’t post. I asked Amber that if the need arose, would she step in and be my sub for the games. She accepted. It’s just a coincidence that a week later, we ended up needing a sub to fill an open spot. The idea of a substitute has ALWAYS been part of the Olympics. It’s nothing new. At this point in the game however, if there’s a need for a sub again, we’re going to use the “rule of cat.” I will let the player choose their sub. I don’t care if that sub is someone who’s been eliminated, someone who hasn’t even heard of the games, or the almighty Sean Kenney himself. What constitutes a valid reason? That’s to be determined on a case by case basis and will be decided on by the judging group as a whole. I don’t think we’re going to need any subs in the future rounds in any case but EVERYONE at this point has proven themselves to be dedicated to the games and deserves the same chance that Aliencat was given.

“Grand design?”
I’m going to make this VERY clear and VERY easy to understand.

THERE IS NO GRAND DESIGN OR MASTER PLAN HERE!

And anyone who thinks so should spend more time trying to prove that NASA faked the moon landing or that JFK was assassinated by aliens… Like Shaddix said, the judges disagree ALL the time about the games, we just do it in private and come to group decisions without putting it out in public (like Dave said, mostly to avoid threads like these).

All that being said, I don’t really like to say this but…

It’s MY game and I decide what happens! I pour my HEART and SOUL into this site, the people in it and the LEGO community as a whole. I do EVERYTHING I can to make this a fun and inviting atmosphere for EVERYONE involved. I go out of my way to make everyone happy with all of these things but guess what, not every decision I make is going to make EVERYONE happy. I’m sorry, but that’s life. Deal with it. I hate to pull the “I’m the boss card” here but man, this is just REALLY ticking me off. Did anyone else come up with the Mocie awards to showcase and honor the best builders on mocpages? No. Did anyone else decide to organize a Mocpages wide competition where EVERYONE was invited to play? Did anyone else take the time to come up with the rules, gather all the players and organize this whole mess? No. There’s a number of people that when they see that hornet’s nest, they have to pick up the stick and whack it just to see what happens and frankly, I’m getting tired of it. It’s not often that I get mad at something, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a LOT of other issues that have happened here (and elsewhere around the pages that I’ve had to be a part of) and I am trying my hardest to make EVERYONE involved happy but it’s just not gonna happen.

I’m sorry I went on a bit of a rant there, but sometimes even Phipson gets ticked.

Now then, all that being said…

Any other questions?

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 7:50 pm
Hahahahaha! Ok, I'll stop stirring the pot. Truth is, I enjoied this almost as much as the "Vin incident" :D
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 7:58 pm
Quoting Chris Phipson
Ok, where do I start? Let’s go down the list shall we?

... <snip> ...

Now then, all that being said…

Any other questions?


Woah!! That was a big load of serious stuff. I think I'm gonna have a loose bowel movement... XD
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:01 pm
Question: Will there be fondue at next year's MOCies or not? The people demand an answer!
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:09 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix
Make sense?
I wasn't talking about the logistics. I'm talking about the fairness factor. No player should be allowed to win without at least playing in the majority of the rounds.

Here's the hypothetical under your proposal: MOC Finals Dave Vs Chris. Chris has to goto rehab. Invites Mark as substitute. Mark goes snot, Dave goes studs and Mark Wins Olympics with only participating in one round.

I feel the same way about letting anybody new in past round 3. Round 4 and beyond is something that needs to be earned from previous rounds.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:32 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Dennis Price
Question: Will there be fondue at next year's MOCies or not? The people demand an answer!


Beer and pizza.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:33 pm
Quoting Chris Phipson

Beer and pizza.

As it should be. As it should be.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:34 pm
Quoting Chris Phipson

Beer and pizza.

OOH! OOH! I'm coming... And sorry for using the pic. I changed as soon as I deleted my sisters acount WITH permission. Don't ask why she joined... LONG story. So, we good?
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:36 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Dave Shaddix

No roofies this time Chris.


But you were so much fun last time... fine.
Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 8:41 pm
Quoting Chris Phipson
“I have soccer practice”


what's all this hate for soccer? But, if one of my player told me he had to miss practice to build Legos, I'd bench him.


Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 9:04 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Dave Kaleta
what's all this hate for soccer? But, if one of my player told me he had to miss practice to build Legos, I'd bench him.


No hate for soccer, just using it as an example... but I'd TOTALLY ditch practice to build!

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 9:19 pm
I'd totally ditch soccer, period.

Permalink
| October 2, 2009, 9:44 pm
I would TOTALLY NEVER miss soccer. I love doing a pointless (and with the exception of a few REALLY determined people, utterly useless) exercise where upon I kick a multicolored ball around and sweat.

And when I fake being sick, I always love sitting on the couch, staring at the game through a pointlessly huge screen that simply ruins the atmosphere. Love it
Permalink
| October 3, 2009, 3:08 am
Hi, i hope you will understand what i want to say, but my English is really a problem - Sorry. One problem of Mocolympics is, that you need so much time. It would be better to reduce the rounds. One option, without shrinking the field of competitors , is a qualification round, groups of 5, 6 or how ever many participants. A theme and the best rises, then Single-elimination. Another advantage is, that it is no problem when a builder does not contribute in the qualification round. When the Mocolympics are shorter, each participant could better know if she/he has enough time for it and no substituion is necessery. Enough from me, it was fun, much pleasure to all participants for the next round and thanks to Chris for these great games.

Liebe Grüße
Stefan
Permalink
| October 3, 2009, 3:17 am
Quoting Dave Shaddix
We aren't a cabal, or some fifth column trying to dominate MOCpages... its just not the case.


Wait, what? Man, I'm so outta here!
Permalink
| October 3, 2009, 4:01 am
Hmm I just got back from 2 weeks in Seattle and found this topic, I would like to give you my side of this.

It's true that BrickCon was something that was planned quite a while ago, and my wife and I had indeed already planned our vacation to Seattle for the 2 weeks surrounding BrickCon.
However, I had hoped (actually counted on) Round 4 would start 2 or 3 days before I left, so I could at least enter something.

As it turned out in the end, Round 4 started on the day I left, something I hadn't forseen, so I asked Chris for help (before the round started), explained the situation and asked a simple "what do I do?".

Mind you this was right here in the public conversation area and not in some shady back room where Chris likes it best. Chris gave me the option of calling in a substitute for the round and Eggy was right there telling me he could substitute.

Awesome as Eggy is, I accepted that opportunity, before the round even started, also in public, to let anyone who didn't agree have their say. No one said anything, so I went on holiday and away from the internet expecting Eggy to do me proud (and boy he did!). So why didn't all this protest happen then and there? Why did it only start as soon as Eggy won? That's a bit weird to me, there was plenty of time and opportunity to object.

I just want the MocOlympics to be fun and games, and I thought my request to let Eggy sub for me would keep the continuous momentum of that going instead of a anticlimax where one player doesn't post.

Quoting Dave Shaddix
I compared it to baseball once before, so I'll do it again. Cat, couldn't play, so he asked for a substitution. That's fine, but we should pull from a group of bench warmers instead of people who were eliminated. The original player DOES NOT come back in, that person hits the showers while the substitute battles it out.


I understand and agree with this. If the judges agree I would like to ask if Eggy can come back into the games instead of me, since he is the one who beat 2x4 with cool stuff, not me.

I didn't expect this to cause anyone getting upset, and had I known I would have forfeited before the beginning of round 4. Or maybe even round 3 so my opponent then could have faced 2x4 fair and square. Like I said, I just wanted to keep things going and keep things fun and games.

I realize this too may cause controversy since Eggy was eliminated in round 3, but I would really prefer if the player who actually won (that's Eggy, not me) gets to proceed to the next round, and I'd like to drop out, as not to ruin the fun for everyone else.

I just think that would be the best choice since Eggy did win, and I didn't. But only with the approval of the judges this time.
Permalink
| October 7, 2009, 1:58 pm
<<<I just think that would be the best choice since Eggy did win, and I didn't. But only with the approval of the judges this time.

I disagree, and unfortunately wouldn't be able to play anyways due to other circumstances. Its your game to win. The rules were made, no one peeped.

Don't worry about these guys. The topic is not directed at the players rather how to improve next years Olympics.

This will be long forgotten if you come up with a great Round 5 build. No Pressure =)

Permalink
| October 7, 2009, 2:49 pm
Quoting Eggy Pop
<<<I just think that would be the best choice since Eggy did win, and I didn't. But only with the approval of the judges this time.

I disagree, and unfortunately wouldn't be able to play anyways due to other circumstances. Its your game to win. The rules were made, no one peeped.

Don't worry about these guys. The topic is not directed at the players rather how to improve next years Olympics.

This will be long forgotten if you come up with a great Round 5 build. No Pressure =)


Eggy is right, we all had our whine fest and are way beyond it. Like he said, it was more about tweaking it a bit in the future. Just suggestions nothing more really. Build away my friend, and let's see what ya come up with for round 5!
Permalink
| October 7, 2009, 8:43 pm
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. I've started building for Round 5.
Permalink
| October 8, 2009, 6:04 pm
Quoting Aliencat *
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. I've started building for Round 5.


Good luck!
Permalink
| October 9, 2009, 12:26 pm
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