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Captain Vin: You lose in my book
I have no stake in this and no authority, but I am in complete agreement with Keith on this. This goes beyond coincidence, in fact it goes beyond "being influenced by" -- the similarities in placement of certain elements, the overall look of the build, and the underlying plotline itself convince me that this is a thinly-disquised copy of Keith's MOC. My opinion (which you may or may not accept) is the competitor should be disqualified.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 7:15 pm
 Group admin 
Captian Vin's moc is VERY similar to Keith's... almost to the point of blantant copy. Now, had Vin said "I saw the Nova Taurus and was inspired to create something in homage to it's awesomeness, I don't think keith would be upset here. I believe that Keith is upset because Vin stated "I've never seen it before".

Again, it's NOT the fact (in my opinion anyway, keith may totally disagree) that Vin copied the design, but that he A: didn't give Keith credit (or even if he had forgotten who he'd seen it from, at least say "I remember something like this from before" to give some sort of credit) and B: Then lied about not having seen it when he was "called out" by all the others.

I'm opening this to the other judges to decide the fate of Vin. Majority rules. I for one agree with keith. There's no room here for people who can't admit that they were inspired by other's creations, especially one so well known and respected as Keith's.

Judges, your call.
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| September 3, 2009, 7:25 pm
Nothing against the builder in question, but this is not a matter of something being influenced by Keith's work -- the build and the story are too close for that. As a teacher, I've seen how kids do research papers and I'm reminded of that here. Often kids change some things to try and make it look like it's their work, but it's still plagiarism if the originator isn't credited. Now crediting every little building technique to the person who (may or may not) have created it is going too far, but not giving the creator of an entire MOC at least a tip of the hat is unacceptable as well.
I think Keith's right to stand fast here, otherwise every contest or contest entry will come under suspicion. Who has time to scour MOCpages, Flickr, Brickshelf, etc trying validate entries? Chris doesn't, and he shouldn't have to do so.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 7:55 pm
Quoting Dave Shaddix

I am pretty sure Heather has that kind of time... She's good at it too.

Nothing but love Heather! :-)

Who is this "Heather"?
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| September 3, 2009, 8:04 pm
In other creative competitions such as art fairs, dance contests, essay competitions, juried exhibitions, etc., this would be grounds for disqualification. In the professional field, this degree of similarity would be regarded as a copyright infringement, and could often result in legal action (I've filed some lawsuits for my artwork being used before). The similarities are far too numerous for coincidence, in my opinion; so much so, that I would not have needed Keith to bring it to my attention. It was immediately recognizable as an emulation of Keith's "Flight."

Under the circumstances, I think disqualification would certainly be justified. We've been pretty darn strick when it comes to the rules, disqualifying entries that failed to meet the required criteria. Out of fairness to those who were disqualified earlier, and those who've abided by the rules (as well as the ethics of our community) my vote would be to reject this entry as well.

Let me also say this for clarity's sake...like the others, it's not so much the emulation of Keith's work that bothers me, but the fact that Keith was not recognized on the page, and that Vin denied being influenced when he CLEARLY was.

My .02 on the matter.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 8:36 pm
Well the similarities are, well - numerous. I have to admit that when I looked at the posting I knew I had seen it's like before.

Coincidence? Maybe. It doesn't seem likely, but maybe. I am an eternal optimist, and I always try to find the best in people. Besides, if one were going to pick a builder to plagiarize - why pick Goldman (he couldn't build to save his life). Joking aside, the man's creations are so well known, that it would be impossible to slide this one by a blind 9-year old border collie. Heck, even Phipson recognized it.

I find it hard to believe that one who can build (as Captain Vin has shown he can) could be so oligo-neuronal as to think that a copy of one of Goldman's creations could be entered without it being recognized - it isn't logical.

However, I concede that the similarities are too great to ignore. I vote that Captain Vin delete his post, and endeavor to create a new one to enter into the contest.

Innocent until proven guilty, and reasonable doubt. Guilty? Maybe, but I have a smidgen of doubt due to it not being logical. I have to go with Blackstone's formulation: "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" (copied/pasted from Wikipedia ;-) )

Lee.


Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 9:08 pm
Well said, Mark.

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| September 3, 2009, 9:12 pm
I think it is a blatant copy. The "similarities" are huge, from the layout of the base to the front piece on the jeep. It annoys me to no end when a great builder like Keith - or anybody else- has work copied without recognition or credit. All of you people in school or people not - im sure this has happend to all of us at some point - when somebody tries to copy your work. same principle here, only theres no teacher to kick his lazy butt into detention. I think its dispicable.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 9:45 pm
Like it matters, but I'm going with Lee's idea. The similiarities are all too numerous, but this is Keith Goldman's stuff we're talking about. You can't go five feet in the online Lego community without seeing one of his models. While the similiarties are blatantly obvious, there's still just enough differences to make this MoC a tough one to judge. There's still time to build another entry. I'd be fine with a written apology. But I'm not good with discipline. Granted, I know that my opinion is probably valued as much as rabbit fecies, but we all have the freedom of speech.

Why don't you attempt to invite him over here, and let him voice his own story?
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| September 3, 2009, 10:31 pm
We can't. He disappeared. This does not pend in his favor...
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| September 3, 2009, 10:38 pm
 Group admin 
Like Yuri said, Vin deleted the page AND his account. All I'm going to say here is in my line of work, innocent people don't run.
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| September 3, 2009, 10:51 pm
^I'd have to agree with Chris.
Even if we do take his word, if he wasn't lying he would have stayed and defended himself. Now, to be fair, he was facing quite a bit of adversity here, but to have deleted the entire account? That sounds pretty suspicious to me. This just happens to be my two cents though.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 10:57 pm
Thats a sad end to the saga. The kid is a pretty good builder despite all of this.
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| September 3, 2009, 11:11 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Professor Eggplant
Thats a sad end to the saga. The kid is a pretty good builder despite all of this.


I agree COMPLETELY Eggy. He was good and his entry was also. It's too bad that this had to go down the way it did. I woulda liked to have seen more from him in the future.

And before he deleted everything, I did give him the information about this thread so that he could voice his opinion. Again... too bad.

To Alex Ruiz, please be sure to still post your entry. It looks like (at this point) that you WILL be moving on to round three, but still post to make it official. Thanks.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 11:17 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Luke Chapman
... I think it is bizarre he would continue down the denial route, when he could have just held his hands up and salvaged that iota of respect, even if he was still delusioned enough to think he hadn't done anything wrong.


Exactly Luke. Had he just said "Hey keith, that's right, I DO remember seeing that sometime ago. Thanks for the influence." then this would have all blown over in a matter of seconds.

Let's hope others learn from his mistake.
Permalink
| September 3, 2009, 11:20 pm
Haha! My powers of posting have defeated you, mr. Shaddix! Feel my wrath!


But no, he should be shot.
Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 1:38 am
Your sword hasn't struck the topic yet.
-Looks at watch-
Nope.
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| September 4, 2009, 4:39 am
Quoting Chris Phipson

I agree COMPLETELY Eggy. He was good and his entry was also. It's too bad that this had to go down the way it did. I woulda liked to have seen more from him in the future.

He'll probably be back with a new name soon, so we'll get the chance to see his future MOCs all the same.
Only, we won't know they're his :)
Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 8:53 am
Um, Dave? I'm writing.
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| September 4, 2009, 9:12 am
Quoting Dave Shaddix
"THIS TOPIC IS LOCKED"!

Really?

Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 11:45 am
Quoting Aliencat *
Quoting Dave Shaddix
"THIS TOPIC IS LOCKED"!

Really?


Odd... I was under the impression that I am still writing in it... But maybe it's just a dream.
Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 1:53 pm
Quoting Jonathan Coyle

Odd... I was under the impression that I am still writing in it... But maybe it's just a dream.

Nope.
-Blasts knees with a shotgun-

Yuri, you'd know what I'm on about...
Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 2:16 pm
Quoting Josh Barron-Proeliator of the 74th floor
Yuri, you'd know what I'm on about...

I'm glad someone does...

Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 3:39 pm
 Group admin 
This thread was locked but I reopened it because I'm going to invite Vin here to plead his case.
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| September 4, 2009, 9:51 pm
 Group admin 
Vin, what I (and everyone else) expected you to do was to come into the group and talk about it. I linked you to this thread in one of my comments on your moc. As far as you "never seeing" his moc before... dude, I have to call you on that one. The sheer amount of similarities between the two mocs was, to say the least, overwhelming. Not only that, but your story was also so close to his that it was almost outright Plagiarism. All that aside, it was NOT the fact that you emmulated Keith's moc, that's not what he was upset about and neither were the rest of us. What he was upset about was the fact that you built your creation and 1st, didn't credit him as the inspiration (which could have been overlooked had you done the second part here) nor did you just say "Yeah, I was inspired by Keith's moc for this one. Thanks Keith!" when people stared pointing out the similarities.

Now, since you've gone and deleted the post, no one new to this can see just HOW similar it was but with things like having the "water" in the EXACT same area and being as the road down started on the left, went to the right, and then back to the left... come on. We had one of the builders here (I won't say who to protect him. He can come forward if he wants to) put the pic of your moc up on the screen with the pic of keith's moc and it was even MORE blatant when compared side by side and not having to click between the two.

The other thing you need to realize, is that Keith thinks you have great potential as a builder and he was never upset with what you did, just how you handled the situation afterwards.

NONE of us were upset that you tried to emmulate Keith's creation. Heck, when I was putting in my first few comments, I wasn't thinking anything bad about it at all. All you had to do, was say what I've said above and we would have all moved on and judged your moc against your opponent's without any issues.

You think you didn't get a fair shake? Think again. Those that saw it have voiced their oppinion. You've been found guilty of what you were accused of (not the building of it, but not being honest about the inspiration) by a jury of you peers.

Now, what do you have to say in your defense?

Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 10:04 pm
 Group admin 
Also, I know you still have the pics or at least still have the moc. I invite you to repost the pics and let more people look to see what they think. If it's NOT influenced by Keith's work as you say, then people will know. If it is however...

If you don't repost it, then your guilt will be sealed. In my line of work, we refer to that as tampering with evidence.

I hope you decide to repost it.
Permalink
| September 4, 2009, 10:11 pm
Quoting Vin .
I asked my Dad about this and he said "People have been building with lego for years, it's very possible for someone to build a creation with significant similarities to another."


Your dad has a point there. However, for it to have so many similarities, on so many levels, your bad luck has to be simply astronomical.

Hmmm this is a very interesting case indeed. I think it's very cool that you came back to explain things from your perspective and that you plan on posting photographic evidence. At least one person (you) believes in your innocence.

I'm not going to judge you here (I'll leave that to the judges). I do not want to meddle. But being one of the first persons to notice and comment on the simularities, I felt inclined to continue posting my thoughts here.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 2:40 am
As much as I see what you mean, Vin... I do feel pain for you.... I mean being accused on line, for doing something wrong and then denying it is a tough situation. But, I think you should avoid words like "attacker" and "unintentionally"... It may be true, but it still sounds like your... whats the word?
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 7:37 am
My thought on the matter: I was checking the 2 MOCs on 2 windows, and the similraities sum up to 5.
1- the subject is a ship on a hill
2- the ship faces right
3- the slope's curve is on the right
4- there's a water pond near the curve
5- there are 2 discs on the ship's front.
Now, for n░ 2 and 3, it's just a 50% chance, so I could be willing to ignore them.
As for the rest, don't you think that if someone thought about nicking a deign, he would have simply changed more?
Reverse the slope, place the pond otherwise, I don't know.
At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I still think there's enough evidence for a strong suspicion, but has anybody stopped to consider what the guy must be going through IF he's telling the truth?
Is that suspicion worth the consequences of a misjudgement?

That said, if Vin REALLY went back to delete a comment he originally posted on Keith's page, that settles the score for me, guilty it is.
So I'm asking anybody who does in fact remember reading that particular comment to answer here. Tell us what you remember about that comment.
It's a good way to find another brick of the truth.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 9:09 am
Quoting Yuri Fassio
My thought on the matter: I was checking the 2 MOCs on 2 windows, and the similraities sum up to 5.
1- the subject is a ship on a hill
2- the ship faces right
3- the slope's curve is on the right
4- there's a water pond near the curve
5- there are 2 discs on the ship's front.
Now, for n░ 2 and 3, it's just a 50% chance, so I could be willing to ignore them.
As for the rest, don't you think that if someone thought about nicking a deign, he would have simply changed more?
Reverse the slope, place the pond otherwise, I don't know.
At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I still think there's enough evidence for a strong suspicion, but has anybody stopped to consider what the guy must be going through IF he's telling the truth?
Is that suspicion worth the consequences of a misjudgement?

That said, if Vin REALLY went back to delete a comment he originally posted on Keith's page, that settles the score for me, guilty it is.
So I'm asking anybody who does in fact remember reading that particular comment to answer here. Tell us what you remember about that comment.
It's a good way to find another brick of the truth.

i concur completly. sadly i have not been on keith's page for a while, mainly because he doesn't have any new mocs :(, so i know nothing about the coment. but that comment could end the arguement right dead in its tracks.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 9:20 am
Anyone who thinks that Vin's MOC wasn't a copy didn't look closely enough. There are too many similarities to list. That said, he may have some kind of crazy memory and remembers the MOC but doesn't remember seeing it on Keith's page. I'd like to see Captain Vin return though, regardless of what actually happened.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 9:47 am
Hopefully, on top of all the other similarities THIS evidence will conclude all discussions as to whether or not Captain Vin had seen Keith's MOC and, in fact, actively went about trying to emulate it: Keith's picture with the caption: "The Iron Beavers move out!" http://www.mocpages.com/image_zoom.php?mocid=11668&id=/user_brickshelf_resized/gallery/KGoldman/13NovaTaurus/a5.jpg Captain Vin's picture with the caption "The pirates move out!" http://www.mocpages.com/image_zoom.php?mocid=150118&id=/user_images/20922/12520073052 (yeah copy and post the urls (EDIT: Oh no need lol))
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| September 5, 2009, 11:23 am
You can't just copy a creation without knowing, that's a lie
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| September 5, 2009, 11:34 am
Quoting ▀rady Geez

And Keith, I'm actually rather dissapointed on how you handled this.


Whatever happened to the King of Smack?


Ya. I see what you mean. Had I been Vin, and I read that, I would have been really hurt. I may have even cried.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 11:52 am
Quoting Jack Fonchezzz

Ya. I see what you mean. Had I been Vin, and I read that, I would have been really hurt. I may have even cried.

or wet yourself! :D
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 11:59 am
I saw the picture, and I saw the similarities. I personally base alot of my MOCs off the excellent builds of Keith Goldman, but I try to give credit. This guy gave no credit and then lied about it.

I think that everybody has seen the Nova Taurus, and there is no way on Earth Vin. could have not known what he was doing in building the knock-off. This was definatly not cool.

But I do also think Goldman and everybody else should give him a chance to rebuild and reprove himself, people make mistakes. Hopefully he will have enough sense to build something of his own design next time around.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 12:02 pm
Quoting Vin .
Alright Jack so i'm calling you a liar and a cheater every time you try to talk and then post an untrue topic about you on one of the most popular groups in MOCpages. Am I your attacker or perhaps accuser is a better word.

lets go with accuser.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 12:27 pm
Quoting coffe monkey .
or wet yourself! :D

only chris can do that.
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| September 5, 2009, 12:28 pm
Well said, Keith!
And to Vin: There was a rumor that you commented on Keith's MOC prior to this whole matter, and then deleted to "cover your tracks". If somebody remembered it, that would be a quite conclusive bit of proof.
Since that didn't happen, I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Even more so, since something similar (in a LOT smaller scale) happened to me in the MOColympics, too.
http://www.mocpages.com/moc.php/149634
If you just check my comment exchange with Blake B. You'll know what I mean.
Of course the difference in the coincidence level would be immense, but even so, I understan HOW it could have happened.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 1:56 pm
 Group admin 
I'm considering this a dead issue. Everyone has now seen the evidence (thanks to Luke) and it speaks for itself. Had Vin simply said at the begining that he had seen the Nova T. and was influenced by it, no harm no foul. As it stands however, that was not the case.

Like Shaddix said, you withdrew your moc and deleted your account so there's no question that you cannot continue in the games (not that I think you wanted to anyway).

Keith, Thank you for your response. You are the bigger man in this for admitting that you may have come down a little hard on him and I thank you for coming forth and stating such. See Vin, that's how you make a public apology when you make a mistake. Now watch me do the same.

I read one of Keith's comments wrong and thought that you had made a comment on the Nova T. some time ago and then when all this started, had gone back and deleted that comment to cover your tracks. I was WRONG in this and for that, I apologize.

Now all that's left is for Vin to admit that he had seen the Nova T. at some point, some where and it stuck in his subconcious and was instrumental in the creation of his moc... but that's obviously not gonna happen.

The discussion is over and like Keith said "Preponderance of the Evidence" was your smoking gun. I'm sorry Vin and I wish you the best of luck and hope you continue to build AND to emmulate the greats like Keith. You've got a lot of potential and could become one of the greats in the future. Good luck to you.

Court is adjourned.
~ Magistrate Phipson
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 4:50 pm
 Group moderator 
This calls for a Keith Goldman fan club!Hmmm?...what did I miss?...oh...right.
Permalink
| September 5, 2009, 4:54 pm
Group moderators have locked this conversation.
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