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Why did God allow there to be evil in the world?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 11:54 am
Perhaps we're just God's equivalent of The Sims, and He wanted to have some fun.
Perhaps there is no God.
Perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it/they is/are not perfect.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 12:00 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
Perhaps we're just God's equivalent of The Sims, and He wanted to have some fun.
Perhaps there is no God.
Perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it/they is/are not perfect.

If there is no God, how is there a universe?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 12:02 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
If there is no God, how is there a universe?

Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 12:08 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
If there is no God, how is there a universe?

I don't know how this universe of ours was created.
Do you know how God was created, or where he came from?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 12:59 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
I don't know how this universe of ours was created.
Do you know how God was created, or where he came from?

God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 1:39 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.

Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 1:43 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.

So you're basically saying that the universe had to be created by something, but God appeared out of nowhere?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 2:00 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.

Yeah, the point of singularity. Ever hear of dark matter? Matter and Dark matter cannot touch, they explode. So if there was matter and dark matter in the point of singularity separated then some how collided, the big bang happened.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 2:01 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.

Then how does he exist? He can't.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 2:02 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Yeah, the point of singularity. Ever hear of dark matter? Matter and Dark matter cannot touch, they explode. So if there was matter and dark matter in the point of singularity separated then some how collided, the big bang happened.

Are you sure you don't mean Anti-Matter? I'm still not sure the force would be strong enough.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 3:16 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Then how does he exist? He can't.

He doesn't exist like an object, more like a mind(without a body, if you can imagine that).
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 3:18 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
He doesn't exist like an object, more like a mind(without a body, if you can imagine that).

Last time I checked in the bible it says he created us to look like him.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 3:56 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Last time I checked in the bible it says he created us to look like him.

I believe that means he created our minds/souls to be in resemblance to his mind/soul.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 4:23 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I believe that means he created our minds/souls to be in resemblance to his mind/soul.

But then how did he say "Let there be light" without a mouth, or words?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 4:28 pm
Quoting Harrison H.
In the bible it says many times that Humans do not understand everything. We can't just think of this stuff and come to the conclusion that God isn't real. Also for you guys saying God doesn't exist, its either you believe in Him or you don't. If you are just staying here trying to prove to us he isn't just leave the group. i'm pretty sure it was created for the purpose of Christians gathering to talk about legos.

I'm trying to prove to Matthew Novosad that God really does exist, I'm not trying to prove that he doesn't. If he had a physical body like ours, he would have had a beginning and eventually an end, which goes against our Christian beliefs.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 4:28 pm
Quoting Harrison H.
In the bible it says many times that Humans do not understand everything.

Not just the Bible. It'd be pretty impossible for a person to know EVERYTHING. But, curiosity is a basic part of the human mind.
As Gandhi once said: "Live as if you will die tomorrow. Learn like you were going to live forever."
Quoting Harrison H.
We can't just think of this stuff and come to the conclusion that God isn't real.

One can't make any valid conclusion without proper looking-into things. Many Christians I know personally believe in God for the sole reason that they were taught so. I don't know if it applies to you or anyone else here, however.

Quoting Harrison H.
its either you believe in Him or you don't.

The way I read it, you just contradicted yourself. How can you not believe in God, if you can't come to the conclusion. That he isn't real? Also, the question of faith is not that black and white. There are believers who doubt, and non-believers who consider that omnipotent beings can be real.

Quoting Harrison H.
If you are just staying here trying to prove to us he isn't just leave the group. i'm pretty sure it was created for the purpose of Christians gathering to talk about legos.

I'll just stay in the group, then. Who knows, maybe I'm talked back into Christianity for a second time?
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 5:43 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
But then how did he say "Let there be light" without a mouth, or words?

You know how you can think the words:"let there be light", well he did something like that. I don't take most of Genesis 1 literally, except for that God created the universe.
Permalink
| November 26, 2010, 6:53 pm
God created evil so we could be good. It sounds a little wacky, but think about it. Without evil, we would have no choice but to be good. Therefore we'd be incapable of showing our love for God because we'd always love Him, by default. However, if we are given the chance to be evil, we can show our love for God by being good despite having the option to do otherwise.
Permalink
| November 28, 2010, 9:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.

I like how for the Big Bang to work the laws of physics needed a timeout.
Permalink
| November 28, 2010, 9:42 pm
Quoting Lt. John Harland
I like how for the Big Bang to work the laws of physics needed a timeout.

The laws of physics were non existent. We are only one universe in a long line of ones before. There were different laws. Ever hear of dark matter?
Permalink
| November 28, 2010, 10:07 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
I don't know how this universe of ours was created.
Do you know how God was created, or where he came from?
What the heck...God was here since the begining which...wait...God was here...ok hang on...let me think this through...Gods been here forever and ever...before anything was created...He was there

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 7:59 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.
HOW IN THE WORLD COULD SOMETHING THAT BIG BE PACKED INTO AN ATOM? Its virtually impossible and there is no proof of there being a 'Big Bang'. If you read your Bible you'll find out how things were created...Its in Genesis

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 8:03 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Then how does he exist? He can't.
WOW! I am very very sad to here that you dont believe in God...Why...So...if the 'Big bang' happened way back when how does it exist? IT DOESN'T READ HOW THINGS WERE CREATED IN GENISIS.WOW! im surprised all people who don't believe in God decided to join this group. SHEEZ!

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 8:07 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Last time I checked in the bible it says he created us to look like him.
We were created in his IMAGE

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 8:08 pm
Quoting Pie Ground
God has always been will be and will to come. Easy as that.

thank you that saved me alot of thinking
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 8:13 pm
the big bang is scientifically impossible no thing alive 'witnessed' the big bang which never happened...and no one ever saw heard tasted or smelled the big bang...there ya go.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 8:17 pm
Quoting john shilou
the big bang is scientifically impossible no thing alive 'witnessed' the big bang which never happened...and no one ever saw heard tasted or smelled the big bang...there ya go.

Not a very good argument, atheists can say the same thing about God. :/
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:12 pm
Quoting john shilou
the big bang is scientifically impossible no thing alive 'witnessed' the big bang which never happened...and no one ever saw heard tasted or smelled the big bang...there ya go.

I believe the big bang was caused by God. After all, nobody saw, smelled, or tasted creation either. I believe the way I do because there is so much evidence to support it.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:20 pm
Quoting W Mark
God created evil so we could be good. It sounds a little wacky, but think about it. Without evil, we would have no choice but to be good. Therefore we'd be incapable of showing our love for God because we'd always love Him, by default. However, if we are given the chance to be evil, we can show our love for God by being good despite having the option to do otherwise.

That's the best answer I've got for my question so far. But it has one flaw(I'm not trying to test everybody, I'm wondering this question myself, I think if we all collaborate on this together, we might think of something): God is all powerful, he could create us to have true love for him with no option for evil.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:26 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I believe the big bang was caused by God. After all, nobody saw, smelled, or tasted creation either. I believe the way I do because there is so much evidence to support it.
Really? What evidence...

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:28 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
HOW IN THE WORLD COULD SOMETHING THAT BIG BE PACKED INTO AN ATOM?
God can do it, he is all powerful.
Quoting john shilou
Its virtually impossible and there is no proof of there being a 'Big Bang'. If you read your Bible you'll find out how things were created...Its in Genesis
There is lots of evidence for a big bang, I suggest you look into it(just so that you can have strong argument, you don't have to believe it.)

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:29 pm
Quoting The world where the only thing that made sense is Pie
That is a really good point. I got a way to say it too.
Science says if you can not touch,smell,see,hear or taste it(pretty much) it is not real.

You can scientifically proove that something exists, without naving to touch, smell, see, hear, or taste it. Honestly, have any scientists actually seen an electron? Then why do they believe in it?
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:31 pm
Quoting john shilou
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I believe the big bang was caused by God. After all, nobody saw, smelled, or tasted creation either. I believe the way I do because there is so much evidence to support it.
Really? What evidence...
Why don't you search Google? Wikipedia? Yahoo? Go on some physics websites, find out what evidence for your self. In order to have a strong argument against something, you have to know what the people who believe it believe, and their ways to prove it. The reason I believe God caused the big bang is because there is so much evidence for it.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:35 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible The reason I believe God caused the big bang is because there is so much evidence for it.

Also because I have never heard a strong proof against it(on both sides, the creationists, and the atheists(most atheists seam to be absolutely determined NOT to believe in God))
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:39 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
So you're basically saying that the universe had to be created by something, but God appeared out of nowhere?

God did not 'appear', he has always bean there. Yes the universe was created by someONE, not someTHING.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:41 pm
Quoting john shilou
Really? What evidence...
If you don't know, then you can't come up with good evidence against it(as I've said before).

Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:43 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
The laws of physics were non existent. We are only one universe in a long line of ones before. There were different laws. Ever hear of dark matter?

How come the laws were different? Are you still sure you don't mean Anti-Matter? How do you know scientists you Dark Energy as an excuse not to believe in God? (I don't know much about dark energy, I'd better look into it before I ask this)
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:49 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Then how does he exist? He can't.

why?
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:51 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Last time I checked in the bible it says he created us to look like him.

you have taken it much too literally there we are modeled after Gods heart but we are however fallen.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:52 pm
Quoting Lt. John Harland
you have taken it much too literally there we are modeled after Gods heart but we are however fallen.

Yes, agree with Lt. John, he knows what he is talking about.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:54 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Matthew Novosad
The laws of physics were non existent. We are only one universe in a long line of ones before. There were different laws. Ever hear of dark matter?

dark matter is made up stuff. It was created in order for the Big Bang to work. There is no solid proof of it existing in the universe
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:55 pm
Quoting Lt. John Harland
dark matter is made up stuff. It was created in order for the Big Bang to work. There is no solid proof of it existing in the universe

I just looked Dark Matter up on Wikipedia, I agree with Lt. John. Dark Matter is Science's excuse for God.
Permalink
| November 29, 2010, 10:57 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
God did not 'appear', he has always bean there. Yes the universe was created by someONE, not someTHING.

I have heard that so many times it's not even funny.

Someone (A): "You say the Big Bang never happened, and said God created the universe because it couldn't create itself.
I could say the same thing about God."
Somebody (C): "He's always been there. It's just how it is."

Please understand that I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone. I am merely expressing my discontent at how you provide statements that aren't properly backed up.
Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 7:21 am
Quoting Boss Nass
Maybe BOTH are right. Genesis is fairly vague. God could have initiated a Big Bang to create everything.

Maybe. I was mainly referring to him saying that the universe could not create itself, but at the same time said it was the opposite with God.
Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 5:05 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
I have heard that so many times it's not even funny.

Someone (A): "You say the Big Bang never happened, and said God created the universe because it couldn't create itself.
I could say the same thing about God."
Somebody (C): "He's always been there. It's just how it is."

Please understand that I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone. I am merely expressing my discontent at how you provide statements that aren't properly backed up.

You have to understand that God is not a thing, but a spirit. Creation is a word that applies to things.
Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 7:47 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
Maybe. I was mainly referring to him saying that the universe could not create itself, but at the same time said it was the opposite with God.

Nothing can create itself. If the universe has been around infitely, I can deduce that we would be in utter chaos by now, given the fact that the universe is constantly moving towards chaos. Thus someone must have been around before to start the universe, and moreover this person(A.K.A. God)would be infinite, causing me to come to the conclusion (again using the theory that says that matter is always moving towards chaos)that God is not a physical being, or all powerful, or both, which is what I believe.
Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 7:57 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
I have heard that so many times it's not even funny.

Someone (A): "You say the Big Bang never happened, and said God created the universe because it couldn't create itself.
I am not saying the big bang did not happen, it did, I'm saying God caused it.

Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 8:02 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting john shilou
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I believe the big bang was caused by God. After all, nobody saw, smelled, or tasted creation either. I believe the way I do because there is so much evidence to support it.
Really? What evidence...
Why don't you search Google? Wikipedia? Yahoo? Go on some physics websites, find out what evidence for your self. In order to have a strong argument against something, you have to know what the people who believe it believe, and their ways to prove it. The reason I believe God caused the big bang is because there is so much evidence for it.
ok seriously that is...eeeaaa!...i learned the HARD way that everything on the internet isn't always true

Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 8:25 pm
As to the original subject of this thread, I would suggest reading Augustine's Confessions.

As for what this thread sidetracked onto, the question of origins, every theory boils down to a point where something/one caused everything to exist. Since no one was alive to see what caused everything to exist, we must draw our own conclusions based on faith. To me, it seems much more likely that a God existed before the world and was uncreated, than that an unexplained cosmological blip created the universe.

The universe is much too complex to be explained by simply a gigantic explosion. Too many things work out correctly, even on just Earth, to be mere coincidence. Even if one subscribes to the Big Bang theory, I have yet to hear an explanation as to how the matter appeared in the first place. Which would you rather have? The 'god' of matter, or a thinking, real God? And don't deny it: the Big Bang makes matter a god. It holds that matter 'created' everything (by accident, admittedly, how comforting!) and exists on its own, without outside creation.

Secondly, the idea that physics acted differently while the Big Bang was exploding/before it exploded is just absurd. A scientific theory bending scientific laws while expressing contempt for creation because it breaks scientific laws?

In the end though, every theory of creation boils down to faith. None of us was there when the universe was formed. None of us know what happened.
Permalink
| November 30, 2010, 10:31 pm
Quoting john shilou
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting john shilou
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I believe the big bang was caused by God. After all, nobody saw, smelled, or tasted creation either. I believe the way I do because there is so much evidence to support it.
Really? What evidence...
Why don't you search Google? Wikipedia? Yahoo? Go on some physics websites, find out what evidence for your self. In order to have a strong argument against something, you have to know what the people who believe it believe, and their ways to prove it. The reason I believe God caused the big bang is because there is so much evidence for it.
ok seriously that is...eeeaaa!...i learned the HARD way that everything on the internet isn't always true

Can you prove it wrong?
Permalink
| December 1, 2010, 12:42 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Can you prove it wrong?

Please understand I'm not trying to be mean, or force my opinions on you in any way. I respect your views on Genesis 1, and I think now you know the proofs for big bang theory, your argument against it will be much more effective.
Permalink
| December 1, 2010, 9:47 am
Quoting The Lego Man ...

There is no proof for the 'Big Bang Theory'. It is scientists attempt to have themselves be created by something other than God. And the internet isn't always true. People just think it is.

If you can come up with a powerful argument against it, I mite believe you, but just saying,"There is no proof for the Bib bang theory... The internet is wrong" just doesn't cut it.
Permalink
| December 1, 2010, 7:15 pm
If you disagree with the big bang, please come up with disproofes of these 8 points:
1. If the earth is about 6000 years old, how can we see things farther than 6000 light-years away?
2. The bible, literally taken, says (in Genesis 1) that the sky is a firmament, and that there's a bunch of water above it.
3. If the creation story is true, why would God put so much counter-evidence in the world.
4. If dinosaurs were alive at the same time as modern animals, wouldn't they have completely wiped out modern animals, after all they had much stronger deffence and attack weapons(do you think a lion could kill an ankylosaurus, rather the reverse).
4.5 Also I've found a lot of creationists believe the dinosaurs were wiped out in the great flood, doesn't it say in the bible that Noah took two of EVERY animal onto the ark(that would include dinosaurs), thus I can deduce that dinosaurs had already been wiped out by the time of the flood.
5.There isn't enough surface area on the earth for all of the lifeforms in the fossil record plus modern animals to be living side by side.
6. We still have monkeys because the humans did not evolve from modern monkeys, the evolved from early humanoids. Also, a species can branch into two, not ALL the members have to evolve.
7.If dinosaurs and modern animals were alive together, we would find fossils of modern animals with them, or at least in the same layers of the earth, but we don't.
8. Fossilization takes a very long time, and very precise conditions. It would take longer than the time since the flood for fossils to occur. Going along with this argument, the torrents of the great flood would scatter the bones of the dinosaurs, making complete fossils impossible.
Permalink
| December 1, 2010, 7:20 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

Before i create a complete reply to that; i would like to ask one thing. Do you believe firmly in evolution?

If you can prove me wrong, I might not.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 9:44 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
If you disagree with the big bang, please come up with disproofes of these 8 points:
1. If the earth is about 6000 years old, how can we see things farther than 6000 light-years away?
2. The bible, literally taken, says (in Genesis 1) that the sky is a firmament, and that there's a bunch of water above it.
3. If the creation story is true, why would God put so much counter-evidence in the world.
4. If dinosaurs were alive at the same time as modern animals, wouldn't they have completely wiped out modern animals, after all they had much stronger deffence and attack weapons(do you think a lion could kill an ankylosaurus, rather the reverse).
4.5 Also I've found a lot of creationists believe the dinosaurs were wiped out in the great flood, doesn't it say in the bible that Noah took two of EVERY animal onto the ark(that would include dinosaurs), thus I can deduce that dinosaurs had already been wiped out by the time of the flood.

I'll start with your first four.
1. I'm not extremely familiar with this argument, but I found an article that might answer your question.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i4/lighttravel.asp
2. Yes, that is how the King James version translates it. I personally prefer the NIV translation which reads, "And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8)
3. Could you give examples of "so much counterevidence"?
4. I think some evidence in this article will help you:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/what-happened-to-the-dinosaurs

I'll come back and do the rest in a little while. I'm by no means an expert, but I do think these can answer your questions.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:06 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
If you disagree with the big bang, please come up with disproofes of these 8 points:
1. If the earth is about 6000 years old, how can we see things farther than 6000 light-years away?
2. The bible, literally taken, says (in Genesis 1) that the sky is a firmament, and that there's a bunch of water above it.
3. If the creation story is true, why would God put so much counter-evidence in the world.
4. If dinosaurs were alive at the same time as modern animals, wouldn't they have completely wiped out modern animals, after all they had much stronger deffence and attack weapons(do you think a lion could kill an ankylosaurus, rather the reverse).
4.5 Also I've found a lot of creationists believe the dinosaurs were wiped out in the great flood, doesn't it say in the bible that Noah took two of EVERY animal onto the ark(that would include dinosaurs), thus I can deduce that dinosaurs had already been wiped out by the time of the flood.
5.There isn't enough surface area on the earth for all of the lifeforms in the fossil record plus modern animals to be living side by side.
6. We still have monkeys because the humans did not evolve from modern monkeys, the evolved from early humanoids. Also, a species can branch into two, not ALL the members have to evolve.
7.If dinosaurs and modern animals were alive together, we would find fossils of modern animals with them, or at least in the same layers of the earth, but we don't.
8. Fossilization takes a very long time, and very precise conditions. It would take longer than the time since the flood for fossils to occur. Going along with this argument, the torrents of the great flood would scatter the bones of the dinosaurs, making complete fossils impossible.

1. Sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean by “see” things 6,000 light years away. Can you elaborate?
2. I cannot take you back to the Greek, but I will do my best to ask my pastor who studies in Greek and Latin. Some translations differ, but it does seem clear that there was a huge “sheet” of water surrounding the globe. When the Flood happened, the Scriptures say in Genesis 7:11 “In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.” In other words, that massive sheet of water burst down and inundated the earth. It explains for all the rain and immense amounts of water.
3. You ask why God would allow so much counter evidence. I have a two-part answer. One, there isn’t. Man would like to believe there is so they do not have to be responsible to God, but the “young earth” idea has overwhelmingly more solid evidence than evolution. Why do evolution scientists still have so much trouble proving their hypothesis? If it was really true couldn’t it have been solidly proven by now? Secondly, even if there is some counter evidence, it does not present a problem. God allows Satan to roam the earth harassing people, He allows Christians to be persecuted, He lets there be “evidence” for evolution. Why? There is one continuing fundamental reason. God wants us to come to Him, so He has provided mountainous evidence to show that we are sinners, we are wrong, and we are flawed. When people realize how wrong mans ideas are, it takes them one step closer to the Lord. So that’s why He allows the “evidence”. It’s there to be proven wrong so men might see that they need a Creator.
4. Here I will simply take your line of reasoning a step farther. Do we still have mountain lions? Do we still have deer? Do you really think that a deer would be able to beat a mountain lion? Do we still have wolves? Do we still have sheep? Do you really think that a sheep could kill a wolf? Do we still have polar bears? Do we still have seals? Do you really think a seal could kill a polar bear? It all explains itself. Certainly dinosaurs killed many other animals on the earth, but those animals either bred rapidly enough to compete, or found ways to hide and defend themselves. Beyond all that, dinosaurs are reptiles, and reptiles are born small and keep growing their entire life. So I would venture that many dinosaurs were killed when babies, at a time when say, a bear, or a pack of wolves, could easily take one out. In the end, there might not have been many dinosaurs on the earth. However, doesn’t it follow in your evolutionary line of thinking that if there are no dinosaurs around today, they must not be the fittest?
4.5 Wiped out in the flood? No. Most were exterminated in the flood, but not all. Noah had to have taken two on his ark because he took two of every animal. Thus it is explained. When they landed and all the animals got off, there were a handful of dinosaurs. They either couldn’t handle the post-flood environment and died out, or couldn’t breed rapidly enough to keep up and died out. (The sheet of water explains a drastic change in environment. When it fell to earth during the flood, the former worldwide tropical environment was destroyed. Thus, there was only a small area of the earth that could sustain dinosaurs because they need a tropic environment to survive. Since Turkey is not a tropic environment, and is mostly surrounded by desert, enough of the dinosaurs might never have reached a tropic environment for the race to survive.)
5. If there isn’t enough surface area, and obviously there are animals alive today, doesn’t that present a problem to your theory? After all, if the earth’s not that old, than it would explain why there aren’t trillions of more fossils on it, and thus all the ones from a younger earth fit just fine in the surface area that we have.
6. Under your line of reasoning that presents no problem. We have humans, we have monkeys. They are two very different and unrelated species.
7. Here is another article as my reply. “One of the greatest examples of humans and dinosaurs living together are found near Glen Rose, Texas in the Paluxy River. This area is well known for its fossil footprints of dinosaurs. Hundreds of these have been discovered in this area over the last number of decades. These fossils have been discovered in the cretaceous layer (one of the ‘dinosaur layers’). This layer is above the Jurassic and Triassic strata. A number of years ago quite a few fossilized human footprints began to show up as well in the very same layer that dinosaur fossils had been discovered in. A few had even crossed paths. This idea that human fossil footprints crossed dinosaur footprints was sharply attacked by scientists (especially by evolutionists). Human footprints were extracted from the earth and tested. One was dissected and examined by scientists. Foot doctors (podiatrists) examined it as well. Because no other creature makes footprints like humans (both shape and pressure points), this fossil was determined to be completely human by the dozens of doctors and scientists that examined it.
Many evolutionists, however, determined that they 'must be carvings' and were never accepted as being genuine. (For them to admit that they were actually human would eliminate evolution as a theory). Even though tons of rock was removed, at one time, to expose more of these human footprints, most evolutionists have completely rejected the idea that any of these could possibly be human. More than a dozen of these footprints were discovered in one 'path' of these footprints. These human footprints did cross dinosaur tracks. Read more at http://www.articlealley.com/article_1480015_39.html?ktrack=kcplink
8. I present you with another article. “Dinosaur fossils, as with other fossils, are found throughout earth's sedimentary layers. To date, approximately 95.0% of all earth's fossil remains are marine invertebrates, 4.74% are plants, 0.25% are land invertebrates (including insects), and 0.0125% are vertebrates. Of the vertebrates, the majority are fish. Moreover, 95% of all land vertebrates found consist of less than one bone. However, billions of fossils have been found. Up to as many as 1,200 dinosaur skeletons have been discovered thus far. Sedimentary rock (sandstone, siltstone, shale, limestone, etc) is primarily laid down by moving water, layer upon layer, in a process known as hydrologic sorting. Animals whose fossil remains are found must have been caught in this running water to have been buried and preserved. The remains would be sorted by density just as the rocks were. If not buried, the carcass would rot or be scavenged. Fossil remains of clams (found in the closed position, indicating they were buried alive) have been found atop Mt. Everest. Sedimentary layers and fossil remains seem to be a testimony to a past marine cataclysm. There are nearly 300 surviving Flood Legends passed down by ancient civilizations. Some suggest Noah's Flood.” This explains the fossils. When the floodwaters raged about the earth, they moved massive amounts of dirt, sand and rock. Thus, some animals were buried very quickly far beneath what is presently the surface. Prime and undisturbed conditions formed a vast number of fossils. Though it might seem that the flood torrents would scatter the fossils, if an animal died in the flood, it would still be whole, all skin and bones intact. When buried shortly thereafter by massive amounts of earth, they would not yet have rotted. Thus, when decayed and turned into fossils, there would be a number of complete fossils.

If you have any other questions, I’ll be more than happy to answer.

Greg

Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 12:31 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
If you disagree with the big bang, please come up with disproofes of these 8 points:
1. If the earth is about 6000 years old, how can we see things farther than 6000 light-years away?
2. The bible, literally taken, says (in Genesis 1) that the sky is a firmament, and that there's a bunch of water above it.
3. If the creation story is true, why would God put so much counter-evidence in the world.
4. If dinosaurs were alive at the same time as modern animals, wouldn't they have completely wiped out modern animals, after all they had much stronger deffence and attack weapons(do you think a lion could kill an ankylosaurus, rather the reverse).
4.5 Also I've found a lot of creationists believe the dinosaurs were wiped out in the great flood, doesn't it say in the bible that Noah took two of EVERY animal onto the ark(that would include dinosaurs), thus I can deduce that dinosaurs had already been wiped out by the time of the flood.
5.There isn't enough surface area on the earth for all of the lifeforms in the fossil record plus modern animals to be living side by side.
6. We still have monkeys because the humans did not evolve from modern monkeys, the evolved from early humanoids. Also, a species can branch into two, not ALL the members have to evolve.
7.If dinosaurs and modern animals were alive together, we would find fossils of modern animals with them, or at least in the same layers of the earth, but we don't.
8. Fossilization takes a very long time, and very precise conditions. It would take longer than the time since the flood for fossils to occur. Going along with this argument, the torrents of the great flood would scatter the bones of the dinosaurs, making complete fossils impossible.

1. Sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean by “see” things 6,000 light years away. Can you elaborate?
2. I cannot take you back to the Greek, but I will do my best to ask my pastor who studies in Greek and Latin. Some translations differ, but it does seem clear that there was a huge “sheet” of water surrounding the globe. When the Flood happened, the Scriptures say in Genesis 7:11 “In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.” In other words, that massive sheet of water burst down and inundated the earth. It explains for all the rain and immense amounts of water.
3. You ask why God would allow so much counter evidence. I have a two-part answer. One, there isn’t. Man would like to believe there is so they do not have to be responsible to God, but the “young earth” idea has overwhelmingly more solid evidence than evolution. Why do evolution scientists still have so much trouble proving their hypothesis? If it was really true couldn’t it have been solidly proven by now? Secondly, even if there is some counter evidence, it does not present a problem. God allows Satan to roam the earth harassing people, He allows Christians to be persecuted, He lets there be “evidence” for evolution. Why? There is one continuing fundamental reason. God wants us to come to Him, so He has provided mountainous evidence to show that we are sinners, we are wrong, and we are flawed. When people realize how wrong mans ideas are, it takes them one step closer to the Lord. So that’s why He allows the “evidence”. It’s there to be proven wrong so men might see that they need a Creator.
4. Here I will simply take your line of reasoning a step farther. Do we still have mountain lions? Do we still have deer? Do you really think that a deer would be able to beat a mountain lion? Do we still have wolves? Do we still have sheep? Do you really think that a sheep could kill a wolf? Do we still have polar bears? Do we still have seals? Do you really think a seal could kill a polar bear? It all explains itself. Certainly dinosaurs killed many other animals on the earth, but those animals either bred rapidly enough to compete, or found ways to hide and defend themselves. Beyond all that, dinosaurs are reptiles, and reptiles are born small and keep growing their entire life. So I would venture that many dinosaurs were killed when babies, at a time when say, a bear, or a pack of wolves, could easily take one out. In the end, there might not have been many dinosaurs on the earth. However, doesn’t it follow in your evolutionary line of thinking that if there are no dinosaurs around today, they must not be the fittest?

(I'm having to post in two parts due to uploading length)
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 3:43 pm
4.5 Wiped out in the flood? No. Most were exterminated in the flood, but not all. Noah had to have taken two on his ark because he took two of every animal. Thus it is explained. When they landed and all the animals got off, there were a handful of dinosaurs. They either couldn’t handle the post-flood environment and died out, or couldn’t breed rapidly enough to keep up and died out. (The sheet of water explains a drastic change in environment. When it fell to earth during the flood, the former worldwide tropical environment was destroyed. Thus, there was only a small area of the earth that could sustain dinosaurs because they need a tropic environment to survive. Since Turkey is not a tropic environment, and is mostly surrounded by desert, enough of the dinosaurs might never have reached a tropic environment for the race to survive.)
5. If there isn’t enough surface area, and obviously there are animals alive today, doesn’t that present a problem to your theory? After all, if the earth’s not that old, than it would explain why there aren’t trillions of more fossils on it, and thus all the ones from a younger earth fit just fine in the surface area that we have.
6. Under your line of reasoning that presents no problem. We have humans, we have monkeys. They are two very different and unrelated species.

Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 4:01 pm
7. Here is another article as my reply. “One of the greatest examples of humans and dinosaurs living together are found near Glen Rose, Texas in the Paluxy River. This area is well known for its fossil footprints of dinosaurs. Hundreds of these have been discovered in this area over the last number of decades. These fossils have been discovered in the cretaceous layer (one of the ‘dinosaur layers’). This layer is above the Jurassic and Triassic strata. A number of years ago quite a few fossilized human footprints began to show up as well in the very same layer that dinosaur fossils had been discovered in. A few had even crossed paths. This idea that human fossil footprints crossed dinosaur footprints was sharply attacked by scientists (especially by evolutionists). Human footprints were extracted from the earth and tested. One was dissected and examined by scientists. Foot doctors (podiatrists) examined it as well. Because no other creature makes footprints like humans (both shape and pressure points), this fossil was determined to be completely human by the dozens of doctors and scientists that examined it.
Many evolutionists, however, determined that they 'must be carvings' and were never accepted as being genuine. (For them to admit that they were actually human would eliminate evolution as a theory). Even though tons of rock was removed, at one time, to expose more of these human footprints, most evolutionists have completely rejected the idea that any of these could possibly be human. More than a dozen of these footprints were discovered in one 'path' of these footprints. These human footprints did cross dinosaur tracks. Read more at http://www.articlealley.com/article_1480015_39.html?ktrack=kcplink

Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 4:03 pm
Never mind. It's more than two parts, and I'm having a heck of a time getting the rest to upload, but it should come through at some point.

And I'm sorry if it comes through jumbled or with multiple copies. I'll clean up any duplicates when it finally uploads.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 4:05 pm
Quoting Drew the Skater

I'll start with your first four.
1. I'm not extremely familiar with this argument, but I found an article that might answer your question.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i4/lighttravel.asp
2. Yes, that is how the King James version translates it. I personally prefer the NIV translation which reads, "And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8)
3. Could you give examples of "so much counterevidence"?
4. I think some evidence in this article will help you:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/what-happened-to-the-dinosaurs

I'll come back and do the rest in a little while. I'm by no means an expert, but I do think these can answer your questions.

Thankyou for such extensive answers, best arguments I've ever heard. I still have some things to counter:
1. That website still doesn't explaain how the photons are reaching us from more than 6000 light years away. A changing speed of light makes almost no sense(see note 3).
2.The fact is, the sky is not a firmament or expanse, seperating water from the earth.
3. I mean that if God wants us to believe in a literal translation of Genesis 1, why would he put so much evidence against it in the world.
4. If dinosaurs and humans were alive at the same time, why don't we find fossils of modern animals at the same depth in the crust, in fact, why don't we find fossils of modern animals at all. It still doesn't explain how modern animals could survive with dinosaurs alive at the same time, being carnivorous. They would have wiped out modern animals and probably humans because of their HUGE advantages in size, strength and weaponary systems.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 7:21 pm
Quoting Mudskipper 4
4.5 Wiped out in the flood? No. Most were exterminated in the flood, but not all. Noah had to have taken two on his ark because he took two of every animal. Thus it is explained. When they landed and all the animals got off, there were a handful of dinosaurs. They either couldn’t handle the post-flood environment and died out, or couldn’t breed rapidly enough to keep up and died out. (The sheet of water explains a drastic change in environment. When it fell to earth during the flood, the former worldwide tropical environment was destroyed. Thus, there was only a small area of the earth that could sustain dinosaurs because they need a tropic environment to survive. Since Turkey is not a tropic environment, and is mostly surrounded by desert, enough of the dinosaurs might never have reached a tropic environment for the race to survive.)
5. If there isn’t enough surface area, and obviously there are animals alive today, doesn’t that present a problem to your theory? After all, if the earth’s not that old, than it would explain why there aren’t trillions of more fossils on it, and thus all the ones from a younger earth fit just fine in the surface area that we have.
6. Under your line of reasoning that presents no problem. We have humans, we have monkeys. They are two very different and unrelated species.

4.5 Would't the dinosaurs kill Noah, his reletives and the other animals on the ark?
5. Not every animal that dies fossilizes. Hardly any animals do, and quite a few of the fossils are destroyed.
6. I just said that to protect myself against the argument that we shouldn't now have monkeys.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 7:26 pm
Quoting Mudskipper 4
1. Sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean by “see” things 6,000 light years away. Can you elaborate?
2. I cannot take you back to the Greek, but I will do my best to ask my pastor who studies in Greek and Latin. Some translations differ, but it does seem clear that there was a huge “sheet” of water surrounding the globe. When the Flood happened, the Scriptures say in Genesis 7:11 “In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.” In other words, that massive sheet of water burst down and inundated the earth. It explains for all the rain and immense amounts of water.
3. You ask why God would allow so much counter evidence. I have a two-part answer. One, there isn’t. Man would like to believe there is so they do not have to be responsible to God, but the “young earth” idea has overwhelmingly more solid evidence than evolution. Why do evolution scientists still have so much trouble proving their hypothesis? If it was really true couldn’t it have been solidly proven by now? Secondly, even if there is some counter evidence, it does not present a problem. God allows Satan to roam the earth harassing people, He allows Christians to be persecuted, He lets there be “evidence” for evolution. Why? There is one continuing fundamental reason. God wants us to come to Him, so He has provided mountainous evidence to show that we are sinners, we are wrong, and we are flawed. When people realize how wrong mans ideas are, it takes them one step closer to the Lord. So that’s why He allows the “evidence”. It’s there to be proven wrong so men might see that they need a Creator.
4. Here I will simply take your line of reasoning a step farther. Do we still have mountain lions? Do we still have deer? Do you really think that a deer would be able to beat a mountain lion? Do we still have wolves? Do we still have sheep? Do you really think that a sheep could kill a wolf? Do we still have polar bears? Do we still have seals? Do you really think a seal could kill a polar bear? It all explains itself. Certainly dinosaurs killed many other animals on the earth, but those animals either bred rapidly enough to compete, or found ways to hide and defend themselves. Beyond all that, dinosaurs are reptiles, and reptiles are born small and keep growing their entire life. So I would venture that many dinosaurs were killed when babies, at a time when say, a bear, or a pack of wolves, could easily take one out. In the end, there might not have been many dinosaurs on the earth. However, doesn’t it follow in your evolutionary line of thinking that if there are no dinosaurs around today, they must not be the fittest?

(I'm having to post in two parts due to uploading length)

1. I mean see the photons that are more than 6000 years old.
2. The Old Testament was not written in Greek, it was written in Hebrew and Aramiac. The Bible says that the gates were closed again.
3. The thing is, a deer is capable of escaping from a mountain lion. I don't think a mountain lion could even stand up to a pack of velociraptors, much less a tyrannosaurus. Dinosaurs, since they were cold blooded could not survive a severe and rapid climate change, probably caused by a meteorite. However, the small mammals and birds could, since the have body temperature regulation. Small reptiles could have survived because they do not need as much heat, or as much food. Some dinosaurs probably would have protected their young. Also, some of the dinosaurs could have stolen others' eggs, yet most evolutionists agree that the thieving would not be nearly enough wipe them out.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 7:38 pm
Quoting Mudskipper 4
7. Here is another article as my reply. “One of the greatest examples of humans and dinosaurs living together are found near Glen Rose, Texas in the Paluxy River. This area is well known for its fossil footprints of dinosaurs. Hundreds of these have been discovered in this area over the last number of decades. These fossils have been discovered in the cretaceous layer (one of the ‘dinosaur layers’). This layer is above the Jurassic and Triassic strata. A number of years ago quite a few fossilized human footprints began to show up as well in the very same layer that dinosaur fossils had been discovered in. A few had even crossed paths. This idea that human fossil footprints crossed dinosaur footprints was sharply attacked by scientists (especially by evolutionists). Human footprints were extracted from the earth and tested. One was dissected and examined by scientists. Foot doctors (podiatrists) examined it as well. Because no other creature makes footprints like humans (both shape and pressure points), this fossil was determined to be completely human by the dozens of doctors and scientists that examined it.
Many evolutionists, however, determined that they 'must be carvings' and were never accepted as being genuine. (For them to admit that they were actually human would eliminate evolution as a theory). Even though tons of rock was removed, at one time, to expose more of these human footprints, most evolutionists have completely rejected the idea that any of these could possibly be human. More than a dozen of these footprints were discovered in one 'path' of these footprints. These human footprints did cross dinosaur tracks. Read more at http://www.articlealley.com/article_1480015_39.html?ktrack=kcplink

What kind of dinosaur was it? Anyway, a large bird could have been there, and their footprints aren't really that different. It is VERY hard to discover what something was from its footprints. Besides, it IS possible (if not probable)that it was a carving. Final note: This is the only place they have ever found evidence of dinosaurs and humans living together, wouldn't we find more evidence if it was true?
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 7:43 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...
First of all, Mudskipper, i sincerely applaud you sincerely for taking the time to write that. Otherwise i would have had to do that myself ;D. I thoroughly agree with all you have said, and am here to prove a bit more. 1st. The Earth has been theorized ( That's all we CAN do) at about 10,000 or so years old, from our time to Adam's and Eve's. They added what they have found in the Bible, confirmed with timelines and dates in actual historical records, and found it about 10,000 years. 2. As Mudskipper said, a popular belief, and i think the most reasonable, is that 1. when God put all the animals on the ark, the only way He could do that peacefully was to calm them in some way. We both know God can do that. 2nd. Most christian scientists now believe that the Earth was covered with a thick sheet of water; creating a greenhouse effect, which lenghtened life, and also provided an enviroment for dinosaurs to live. When the Flood came, that dissapeared, and so when the animals came back out, they found the enviroment was unsuitable, and the dinosaurs died.

This is my 2 cents worth, at least for point 2 or 3 or whatever it was. I would put more, but upload speed and short term memory permits to do so.

Now how would this sphere of water be suspended? Also, wouldn't it block out light, causing plants to be more scarce, and not be able to provide food for all the animals on the earth.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 8:58 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

That is the one point i agree with you on. you just told us how the dinosaurs died out after the flood. Couple yours with mine, and voila!

Now THAT is some serious thinking. I'm sticking with my views but I think I can end my argument now that you have given me a perfectly strong and valid argument.

P.S. By the way, if you want to read more about my argument, I would recommend a book: Genesis and the Big Bang, by Gerald L. Schroeder.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 9:01 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
4.5 Would't the dinosaurs kill Noah, his reletives and the other animals on the ark?
5. Not every animal that dies fossilizes. Hardly any animals do, and quite a few of the fossils are destroyed.
6. I just said that to protect myself against the argument that we shouldn't now have monkeys.

4.5 Wouldn't the lions have killed Noah and his family? Wouldn't the wolves have killed Noah and his family? Wouldn't the bears have killed Noah and his family? Wouldn't the leopards? God would have to of certainly "sedated" the animals for the time they were on the Ark. I mean really, could Noah and his family have wrestled down a stubborn elephant?
5. I'm afraid that just goes against your former argument that there wasn't enough surface area for all the fossils of the evolved species. Either way, it no longer presents a reasonable arguing point.
6. Right. In that case we'll let it be. :)
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:20 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Now how would this sphere of water be suspended? Also, wouldn't it block out light, causing plants to be more scarce, and not be able to provide food for all the animals on the earth.

Unless, of course, God had the water stay there by natural or supernatural means. Block out light? No, apparently enough light could get through, and we (obviously) have no proof of how thick it was.
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:24 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
What kind of dinosaur was it? Anyway, a large bird could have been there, and their footprints aren't really that different. It is VERY hard to discover what something was from its footprints. Besides, it IS possible (if not probable)that it was a carving. Final note: This is the only place they have ever found evidence of dinosaurs and humans living together, wouldn't we find more evidence if it was true?

As to what kind, I cannot say. I'm afraid I've never been there. As to a large bird, there aren't any birds that large. Now, you say that very likely the footprints were carved. Then very likely the evolutionary system could be an elaborate lie developed and crafted over the years. Just ask yourself if it is remotely possible. This article you may find very enlightening. http://www.apologeticspress.com/articles/2704
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:31 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
1. I mean see the photons that are more than 6000 years old.
2. The Old Testament was not written in Greek, it was written in Hebrew and Aramiac. The Bible says that the gates were closed again.
3. The thing is, a deer is capable of escaping from a mountain lion. I don't think a mountain lion could even stand up to a pack of velociraptors, much less a tyrannosaurus. Dinosaurs, since they were cold blooded could not survive a severe and rapid climate change, probably caused by a meteorite. However, the small mammals and birds could, since the have body temperature regulation. Small reptiles could have survived because they do not need as much heat, or as much food. Some dinosaurs probably would have protected their young. Also, some of the dinosaurs could have stolen others' eggs, yet most evolutionists agree that the thieving would not be nearly enough wipe them out.

1. Really I know nothing about this, so I will not venture to post an answer unless you strongly desire it.
2. I apologize. It is Greek and Hebrew that he studies in. I just confirmed it with two other church members. Sorry, I've made that mistake a couple times before.
3. You have to decide whether or not you believe the flood is true. Either way, I have presented a line of reasoning for why dinosaurs died out.

Now, support for the Flood. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:47 pm
Directed at Bob the Inconceivably Invincible

Whatever you conclude, it has been a pleasure arguing with you. I hope one day you come to realize the truth of Scriptures, and I am quite prepared to answer any other questions you might have. If I don't have the answers, I will attempt to get them for you.

Greg
Permalink
| December 2, 2010, 10:50 pm
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Directed at Bob the Inconceivably Invincible

Whatever you conclude, it has been a pleasure arguing with you. I hope one day you come to realize the truth of Scriptures, and I am quite prepared to answer any other questions you might have. If I don't have the answers, I will attempt to get them for you.

Greg

It has been a pleasure arguing with you too.

Bob
Permalink
| December 3, 2010, 9:41 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It has been a pleasure arguing with you too.

Bob


Ahh, I was finally able to get the eighth answer to upload.

8. I present you with another article. “Dinosaur fossils, as with other fossils, are found throughout earth's sedimentary layers. To date, approximately 95.0% of all earth's fossil remains are marine invertebrates, 4.74% are plants, 0.25% are land invertebrates (including insects), and 0.0125% are vertebrates. Of the vertebrates, the majority are fish. Moreover, 95% of all land vertebrates found consist of less than one bone. However, billions of fossils have been found. Up to as many as 1,200 dinosaur skeletons have been discovered thus far. Sedimentary rock (sandstone, siltstone, shale, limestone, etc) is primarily laid down by moving water, layer upon layer, in a process known as hydrologic sorting. Animals whose fossil remains are found must have been caught in this running water to have been buried and preserved. The remains would be sorted by density just as the rocks were. If not buried, the carcass would rot or be scavenged. Fossil remains of clams (found in the closed position, indicating they were buried alive) have been found atop Mt. Everest. Sedimentary layers and fossil remains seem to be a testimony to a past marine cataclysm. There are nearly 300 surviving Flood Legends passed down by ancient civilizations. Some suggest Noah's Flood.”
Permalink
| December 3, 2010, 10:37 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Why did God allow there to be evil in the world?

I believe evil makes us stronger...
in a sense

Permalink
| December 6, 2010, 11:04 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
If there is no God, how is there a universe?

if there is no God then there is no universe.
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:05 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.
sorry to dissapoint but the BIG BANG(which just sounds SO scientific) never happened.
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:07 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
So you're basically saying that the universe had to be created by something, but God appeared out of nowhere?

yep
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:08 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Then how does he exist? He can't.

oh yes he can
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:15 pm
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Yeah, the point of singularity. Ever hear of dark matter? Matter and Dark matter cannot touch, they explode. So if there was matter and dark matter in the point of singularity separated then some how collided, the big bang happened.

who made the matter and dark matter, or did it just "pop up" like God did?
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:16 pm
Quoting Harrison H.
In the bible it says many times that Humans do not understand everything. We can't just think of this stuff and come to the conclusion that God isn't real. Also for you guys saying God doesn't exist, its either you believe in Him or you don't. If you are just staying here trying to prove to us he isn't just leave the group. i'm pretty sure it was created for the purpose of Christians gathering to talk about legos.

AMEN!!!!
Permalink
| December 8, 2010, 3:16 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I'm trying to prove to Matthew Novosad that God really does exist, I'm not trying to prove that he doesn't. If he had a physical body like ours, he would have had a beginning and eventually an end, which goes against our Christian beliefs.

God does have a physical body. Genesis 1:26a-27 :"And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness...So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them."
So if God made us in his likeness, and God has no body, they what are we? Little puffs of smoke? I just poked myself and I think I was solid.
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| December 8, 2010, 3:26 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
if there is no God then there is no universe.

Intriguing. But, considering there *might be no God, we perhaps just dreaming souls?
Quoting Stephen Michel
yep [He "popped up of nowhere]

Because that sounds SO probable.

Quoting Stephen Michel
sorry to dissapoint but the BIG BANG(which just sounds SO scientific) never happened.

Really?

Quoting Stephen Michel
oh yes he [God] can [exist]

Sure...

Quoting Stephen Michel
God does have a physical body. Genesis 1:26a-27 :"And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness...So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them."
So if God made us in his likeness, and God has no body, they what are we? Little puffs of smoke? I just poked myself and I think I was solid.

Where does it say that Man was created after God's physical body?

Other than the last comment there, you don't give any form of explanation for your opinions.
So please do that, unless you're just trolling.
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| December 8, 2010, 3:43 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Why did God allow there to be evil in the world?

here is a simple short answer:
God permited Natural Evil (Toil, Strife, Sickness, Old Age, Death, War, Famine, and Plague) as to call us back from our sin and remind us that God is watching over us.

God permitted Moral Evil (Sin) to grow the realtionship we have with him. Without sin, we would not know God's mercy, without god's mercy we would not know god's justice.

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| December 8, 2010, 6:41 pm
Quoting Kyle Chawk
here is a simple short answer:
God permited Natural Evil (Toil, Strife, Sickness, Old Age, Death, War, Famine, and Plague) as to call us back from our sin and remind us that God is watching over us.

God permitted Moral Evil (Sin) to grow the realtionship we have with him. Without sin, we would not know God's mercy, without god's mercy we would not know god's justice.

My personal opinion is more to the effect that, well, A: allowing people to have free will is probably half the reason God does anything, and B: God therefore doesn't control what people do. Not directly, anyway.

Now, since people who don't believe in God don't tend to pay any attention to the Commandments, Love Thy Neighbor and so forth, they don't have the Christian ethical system. Most people in the Western world seem to believe in the concept of Evolution, which is directly associated with Darwinism; I.E., people are chemicals that just magically decided to turn into germs, which magically turned into fish which magically turned into people, and therefore there's no difference between a human and a fish and a puddle of slime. So, if you don't believe you're going to be accountable to a higher power when you die, and you don't believe humans are any different from animals, what's going to stop you from doing whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like? I mean, there's no reason NOT to break into a house and steal all of someone's possessions, just as there's no reason not to reach into a chook's nest and steal its eggs (unless of course it's someone else's chook).

So evil isn't a problem of God allowing things, it's more a problem of people not choosing to recognize God's authority.
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| December 9, 2010, 12:37 am
Quoting Areetsa C
My personal opinion is more to the effect that, well, A: allowing people to have free will is probably half the reason God does anything, and B: God therefore doesn't control what people do. Not directly, anyway.

Now, since people who don't believe in God don't tend to pay any attention to the Commandments, Love Thy Neighbor and so forth, they don't have the Christian ethical system. Most people in the Western world seem to believe in the concept of Evolution, which is directly associated with Darwinism; I.E., people are chemicals that just magically decided to turn into germs, which magically turned into fish which magically turned into people, and therefore there's no difference between a human and a fish and a puddle of slime. So, if you don't believe you're going to be accountable to a higher power when you die, and you don't believe humans are any different from animals, what's going to stop you from doing whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like? I mean, there's no reason NOT to break into a house and steal all of someone's possessions, just as there's no reason not to reach into a chook's nest and steal its eggs (unless of course it's someone else's chook).

So evil isn't a problem of God allowing things, it's more a problem of people not choosing to recognize God's authority.

You do prove a valid point, however, there are flaws with your "free-will solution". For example: Can you go 5 seconds without sinning? Then you can probably go 5 mins without sinning, and so on and so forth. Essentially, free will make evil possible, not actual.
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| December 9, 2010, 6:28 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
My personal opinion is more to the effect that, well, A: allowing people to have free will is probably half the reason God does anything, and B: God therefore doesn't control what people do. Not directly, anyway.

Now, since people who don't believe in God don't tend to pay any attention to the Commandments, Love Thy Neighbor and so forth, they don't have the Christian ethical system. Most people in the Western world seem to believe in the concept of Evolution, which is directly associated with Darwinism; I.E., people are chemicals that just magically decided to turn into germs, which magically turned into fish which magically turned into people, and therefore there's no difference between a human and a fish and a puddle of slime. So, if you don't believe you're going to be accountable to a higher power when you die, and you don't believe humans are any different from animals, what's going to stop you from doing whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like? I mean, there's no reason NOT to break into a house and steal all of someone's possessions, just as there's no reason not to reach into a chook's nest and steal its eggs (unless of course it's someone else's chook).

So evil isn't a problem of God allowing things, it's more a problem of people not choosing to recognize God's authority.
Why would God make us cabable of not obeying him(please, I don't want this to be an argument, I just want your oppinian). By the way, we aren't really different from other animals. Its not that we're worse than we'd like to think, it's that animals are better. I really don't think God would be so cruel as to give us laws, and minds, and suffering, and guilt, while letting the animals go free. And besides, most atheists don't think that there's nothing wrong with breaking into another person's house, and steeling all there stuff.
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| December 9, 2010, 7:54 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.
sorry to dissapoint but the BIG BANG(which just sounds SO scientific) never happened.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Big Bang did really happen.
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| December 9, 2010, 7:58 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
Quoting Matthew Novosad
Big Bang, other universes that came before ETC.
The Big Bang started with an extremely small point, which all matter was packed into, the relative gravity of such a point would be so strong that it would be physically incapable of expanding, thus someone(A.K.A. God) must have caused it to expand.
sorry to dissapoint but the BIG BANG(which just sounds SO scientific) never happened.
I'm just going to ignore that you're being rude.

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| December 9, 2010, 8:01 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
if there is no God then there is no universe.

Agreed.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:05 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
God does have a physical body. Genesis 1:26a-27 :"And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness...So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them."
So if God made us in his likeness, and God has no body, they what are we? Little puffs of smoke? I just poked myself and I think I was solid.

Do you believe the book of Revelation is literally whats going to happen when the world ends?
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| December 9, 2010, 8:06 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .

Wowowowowowowow, wait a second,

Did you just say Animals are better than people?

No, I said they were equal. If you believe people have souls, and animals don't, then I can effectively say, yes, animals are better than people.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:09 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
-_-

Ok, so, you think having a soul is no good?

Yes, it makes us cabable of sinning. Animals(assuming they do not have souls), however, are free of law, and thus, it is not possible for them to sin.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:18 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .

But then it is not possible to enter (or at least fully) enter the Kingdom of God.

You then make the point of saying Souls are bad, so then you must think God made a mistake in giving people Souls, then?
No, I'm saying God gave us a disadvantage(souls), and wants us to go somewhere with it.

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| December 9, 2010, 8:24 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .

It's only a 'disadvantage' if you view it as such. Souls give us individual thought and prevent us from becoming Animals. Souls are the essence of individuality, so to speak.

Animals have souls to. If you've ever had pets, this should become evident to you. I think humans have developed a rather over-sized ego, and now believe that they are superior to all other life-forms.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:28 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
It's because we are.

Can Animals construct towering structures?

Can Animals write masterpieces, paint works of art, or direct cinema?

Can Animals run businesses or enact policies to better enable their society?

Can Animals build a diverse society founded upon common prinicples?

NO.
Yes, but what kind of advantage is that? We really wimps compared to other animals.

Quoting Phazezorz . But, most importantly, do Animals have a special place in God's Eye?
Yes. Don't argue. They do.

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| December 9, 2010, 8:34 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Give me biblical verses that say in essence God prefers Animals over humans. If you can name one verse, coming directly from God or from Christ, I'll take back my statements.

I never said he favored them OVER humans, just that he loves them just like he loves humans.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:43 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
I'm not questioning that, however, if Animals are equal to Humans, why did God place dominion over the Animals to Adam and Eve, then?

Its a metaphor saying that domestication of animals is not a sin, instead that it is part of our purpose.
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| December 9, 2010, 8:47 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Uh...huh,
So, when a King rules his land, he's domesticating his people? Because that's the same form of dominion as stated in the Bible.
I don't see the connection. What verse is this?
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| December 9, 2010, 8:57 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Genesis 1:28, while the NIV doesn't state 'Dominion' in it's exact term, the definition of it is present.

I meant where the other verse is, the one where you got that a king "domesticates is people".
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| December 9, 2010, 9:02 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .

I never said that was a verse.

I told you God gave Humans dominion over Animals, you said that was just a metaphor for domestication, so I asked if a ruling king domesticates his people.

OK, I understand.
Yes, I guess you could say it that way.
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| December 9, 2010, 9:04 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Except you can't.

Domestication is the process of taming something, like an animal, and ruling over it, whereas Dominion is just ruling over something, tame or wild, even if it is a loose form of rule.

Uhhh... You're using the English language against me.
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| December 9, 2010, 9:22 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .

Uhh, no.
Even if I were, you can still use google and bing to define any words you are unsure about.

I merely took the words you were using and questioned them.
Well, I think you are, no matter what you call it. If you want to call it 'using my choice of words against me', go ahead.

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| December 9, 2010, 9:25 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yes, but what kind of advantage is that? We really w1mps compared to other animals.

Very much so. Hyenas can run, quite literally, all day. Bears can kill anything mammalian that gets close to them.

Humans, however, are special. They're the only creature known that makes use of tools for more than a few seperate things. Humans have tools for cutting wood in a hundred different ways. Not only that, they can keep moving in direct sunlight well past the point where most creatures would collapse from exhaustion.

Apples and oranges, m'lad.

Other than that: a human by himself would struggle to kill maybe one deer a week, whereas the same human with a motorbike and hunting rifle could kill hundreds in the same time span. The inventions are what makes the physical human superior to the physical animals. Well, and some physiological things to do with sweating and bipedal locomotion, but I'm not qualified to get into that.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yes. Don't argue. They do.

As his creations, yes. But God created humans to be superior to them.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Animals have souls to. If you've ever had pets, this should become evident to you. I think humans have developed a rather over-sized ego, and now believe that they are superior to all other life-forms.

A personality is not a soul. A personality is the sum of a creature's experiences mixed with a bit of genetics and some random traits. A soul is, well, I don't really know what a soul is beyond that it's what seperates us mentally and spiritually from animals.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Why would God make us cabable of not obeying him(please, I don't want this to be an argument, I just want your oppinian). By the way, we aren't really different from other animals. Its not that we're worse than we'd like to think, it's that animals are better. I really don't think God would be so cruel as to give us laws, and minds, and suffering, and guilt, while letting the animals go free. And besides, most atheists don't think that there's nothing wrong with breaking into another person's house, and steeling all there stuff.

Because worship given by a man who has no choice in the matter isn't really worship at all.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Big Bang did really happen.

Yeah, right.
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| December 9, 2010, 9:28 pm
Oh my gosh.
There is evil, there is good, there are no shades of grey. I'll dumb it down here, God made it because he doesn't want to give everyone a free pass into heaven. He wants to who has good judgement and character, and who doesn't.

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| December 9, 2010, 9:35 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
I'll be honest, Areetsa, I never really found you one of the religious types...

Learn something new every day, I suppose :P

That's because I find internet evangelizing doesn't work at all, and shouting at random strangers that YOUR GOIN 2 HE11 WEN U DY definitely isn't going to encourage them to do anything differently any way you look at it.
If anyone's going to be trying to convert people over the internet, better it be one who's qualified; a minister, say.
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| December 9, 2010, 9:38 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
As his creations, yes. But God created humans to be superior to them.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Animals have souls to. If you've ever had pets, this should become evident to you. I think humans have developed a rather over-sized ego, and now believe that they are superior to all other life-forms.

A personality is not a soul. A personality is the sum of a creature's experiences mixed with a bit of genetics and some random traits. A soul is, well, I don't really know what a soul is beyond that it's what seperates us mentally and spiritually from animals.
God gave animals souls too.
Quoting Areetsa C
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Why would God make us cabable of not obeying him(please, I don't want this to be an argument, I just want your oppinian). By the way, we aren't really different from other animals. Its not that we're worse than we'd like to think, it's that animals are better. I really don't think God would be so cruel as to give us laws, and minds, and suffering, and guilt, while letting the animals go free. And besides, most atheists don't think that there's nothing wrong with breaking into another person's house, and steeling all there stuff.

Because worship given by a man who has no choice in the matter isn't really worship at all.
God is all powerful, he can make worship with no choice real worship.

Quoting Areetsa C
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Big Bang did really happen.

Yeah, right.

Is that sarcasm?
Permalink
| December 9, 2010, 9:40 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
God gave animals souls too.

Eh, no, I'm pretty sure He didn't. Otherwise there'd be bits in the Bible about how killing animals was just as evil as murdering a human, but nope: "Thou Shalt Not Eat Pork" is the only thing like that that I can think of.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
God is all powerful, He can make worship with no choice real worship.

You don't understand, do you? The whole of the Bible is effectively God letting people choose between following Him and following their own selfish interests. He put the tree in Eden specifically to allow Adam and Eve a choice between doing what He told them to and doing what they themselves wanted. Free will is the name of the game. Now, while it's probably impossible to discern all of God's reasons for doing anything, this is all a guess, but what I'm seeing is, well, let's have a hypothetical situation. Say there's a family; perfectly normal Western family, dad, mum, three kids. Now, the eldest wants to do something; run off with his girlfriend, try some drugs, go boozing, join the Army, something like that. The parents don't like that, and they can either bend him to their will by forcing him to do what they want, or they can let him choose. Same sort of thing with God and people; they can follow His rules, which aren't actually very restrictive beyond "be a good person" and there's even a nice big safety net that says that no matter how far you slip, you can always apologize and come back, or they can go off and do their own thing and probably end up dead in a gutter somewhere.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Is that sarcasm?

Nope, that's me saying the Big Bang, and the billions of years mold to microbiologist evolutionary progression that goes with it is completely incompatible with the Christian faith.
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| December 9, 2010, 9:53 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Nope, that's me saying the Big Bang, and the billions of years mold to microbiologist evolutionary progression that goes with it is completely incompatible with the Christian faith.
Good, I was worried.

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| December 9, 2010, 9:57 pm
Quoting Areetsa C


Eh, no, I'm pretty sure He didn't. Otherwise there'd be bits in the Bible about how killing animals was just as evil as murdering a human, but nope: "Thou Shalt Not Eat Pork" is the only thing like that that I can think of.
In the bible, it says killing animals without need is wrong. Giving us an omnivorous nature, and then telling us, "don't eat pork" wouldn't make sense.

Quoting Areetsa C

You don't understand, do you? The whole of the Bible is effectively God letting people choose between following Him and following their own selfish interests. He put the tree in Eden specifically to allow Adam and Eve a choice between doing what He told them to and doing what they themselves wanted. Free will is the name of the game. Now, while it's probably impossible to discern all of God's reasons for doing anything, this is all a guess, but what I'm seeing is, well, let's have a hypothetical situation. Say there's a family; perfectly normal Western family, dad, mum, three kids. Now, the eldest wants to do something; run off with his girlfriend, try some drugs, go boozing, join the Army, something like that. The parents don't like that, and they can either bend him to their will by forcing him to do what they want, or they can let him choose. Same sort of thing with God and people; they can follow His rules, which aren't actually very restrictive beyond "be a good person" and there's even a nice big safety net that says that no matter how far you slip, you can always apologize and come back, or they can go off and do their own thing and probably end up dead in a gutter somewhere.

I think we don't have free will and here's why:
If God knows everything, the He knows what we will do tomorrow. And if he knows what we will do tomorrow, we cannot, not do it.
Permalink
| December 9, 2010, 10:15 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
In the bible, it says killing animals without need is wrong. Giving us an omnivorous nature, and then telling us, "don't eat pork" wouldn't make sense.

Without need, yes. Waste isn't a very good thing. As for eating pork, that's more to the effect that pig meat is well known for harbouring diseases. I seem to recall that pigs are often used in lab tests due to some kind of similarity to humans.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I think we don't have free will and here's why:
If God knows everything, the He knows what we will do tomorrow. And if he knows what we will do tomorrow, we cannot, not do it.

Maybe, but knowing what someone will choose ahead of time and choosing for them are entirely different things.
Permalink
| December 9, 2010, 10:39 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Phazezorz .
God can't see the future...

then why do the prophets prophecy, yes he can see the future he can see everything. ever heard of the second coming?
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| December 9, 2010, 11:53 pm
Ooh hoo, let's make some people angry:

God=No beginning, no end.
Universe=Unarguably has a point of origin (Read: redshift).
Therefore, the universe is expanding. But what happens later? Does it keep expanding? Maybe. Does it slow down and fall back in on itself? Maybe. If so, is this expansion period just a follow-up to a crunching period, and that a follow-up to an expansion period? Is the universe just going in and out, like some kind of eternal rebound? Perhaps...

Universe=No beginning, no end.
God=No beginning, no end.
Universe=God?
Permalink
| December 10, 2010, 12:17 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
God can't see the future...

God is all powerful, not only can he see the future, he CONTROLS the future.
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| December 10, 2010, 1:01 am
One pastor asked people : - Is there God in Universe?- they answered " yes" .
Then he said - No, God isn't in the Universe, Universe is in God .
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| December 10, 2010, 1:14 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
Well, Imma need to ask for Biblical verses stating God can see the future.

if He can, that completely demolishes Free will.

Not exactly. God knows our choice, but it still our choice.
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| December 10, 2010, 1:19 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
But if he knows our choice, why would we even have a choice in the first place? it's just like empty promise. It's like saying 'You can ride a bike, but only inside of this square that's just an inch longer than the bike' kinda deal.

Its more like when some one is really predictable. You can know their choice but it doesnt make it not their choice
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| December 10, 2010, 1:24 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
But you're not seeing it.

God gives man Free will to do whatever he wants, but God can tell WHAT you are going to do, meaning based on you right now God knows what you've done in the future, meaning from the point of birth on, your fate is sealed.

That's free will?

When you seal your fate it is.
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| December 10, 2010, 1:27 am
You say God knows everything we're gonna do? AKA, pre-determined destinies of men?

Aw sheezy, we got a Calvinist up here!
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| December 10, 2010, 1:30 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
But if you have done NOTHING, how have YOU sealed it?

That's what I'm saying.

Then we are saying totally different things. We are just predicable in God's eyes. We still have free will. THAT'S what I'm saying.
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| December 10, 2010, 1:31 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
...

No, that's exactly what I said.

Look, Imma try and speak this as slowly and clearly as possible, you know, so you can fully understand it.

God gives free will to a baby, alright?

Right when the baby is born, however, God already knows that the baby is going to grow up to be a sinful (meaning a guy who breaks God's laws), so therefore (meaning then) the Baby's fate (it's future) is sealed before it even gets to make any choices.

You're telling me that is free will?

If we are PREDICTABLE, the God will STILL know our choices and ELIMINATE any other possibilities from it.


Ahh... you see God as a dictator there to oppress you and those around you. And your baby example, that kid aint pure it is tainted by original sin. It is sinful from conception. By the way as Admin I do demand a certain level of respect from those under me, Particularly the moderators. And as I recall you did lose the admin elections to me and Rusty.
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| December 10, 2010, 1:51 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
Respect is earned, and you can't demand it from me.

Now, YOU are the one seeing God as a dictator if you say he knows our life for us. I'M the one saying that's not how it goes. And my baby example STILL STANDS. It is sinful from conception, but it has MADE NO CHOICES.

Therefore, your point is invalid, and I don't care if you de-mod me.
Well said. But can you explain how I'm the one seeing God as a dictator?

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| December 10, 2010, 1:58 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Phazezorz .
I just did 'You are the one saying He's a dictator because he knows our life for us'

Did you, like, only read the first 5 words of my post?

I missed the part where I said 'God knows our life for us'
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| December 10, 2010, 2:02 am
Quoting Lt. John Harland
I missed the part where I said 'God knows our life for us'


Quoting Lt. John Harland
Not exactly. God knows our choice, but it still our choice.


If you tell me life is not a series of decisions and choices that set us on whatever path we may be on, Imma lol.
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| December 10, 2010, 2:15 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
...

No, that's exactly what I said.

Look, Imma try and speak this as slowly and clearly as possible, you know, so you can fully understand it.

God gives free will to a baby, alright?

Right when the baby is born, however, God already knows that the baby is going to grow up to be a sinful (meaning a guy who breaks God's laws), so therefore (meaning then) the Baby's fate (it's future) is sealed before it even gets to make any choices.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Quoting Phazezorz . You're telling me that is free will?

If we are PREDICTABLE, the God will STILL know our choices and ELIMINATE any other possibilities from it.

I'm telling you that its not.

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| December 10, 2010, 9:05 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
Well, Imma need to ask for Biblical verses stating God can see the future.

if He can, that completely demolishes Free will.
These also proove we do not have free will.
Hebrews 13:8- Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. If Jesus is the same forever, he would have the same state of mind forever. If he had the same state of mind forever, he would have the same memories forever. And if he has the same memories forever, he will have the remember what happened tomorrow.

Proverbs 21:1- The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
This implies that God can, and does, control people.

Psalm 23:2- He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He makes me lie down in green pastures. He MAKES me. I'm glad He does.

And also, If God is all-powerful, He can see the future.

Now, do you having any verses saying that he cannot look into the future?
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| December 10, 2010, 9:28 am
Quoting The Lego Man ...

We need Mudskipper 4. I believe that God gives us free will completely, but being omniscient, he knows what will ultimately happen, but lets us go our own way anyway. I believe He let's us do our own thing, not influencing it very much if at all.

I'm not going to try to argue.
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| December 10, 2010, 9:30 am
Quoting The Lego Man ...
'Makes'? You look so far into that? Go look at the actual greek or latin translation. The meanings are a lot different sometimes than our actual wording.

More than that, the Psalms are songs of adoration, not actual verses. I'm pretty sure they were written by David, but I could easily be wrong.
Permalink
| December 10, 2010, 1:03 pm
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.
Permalink
| December 10, 2010, 5:09 pm
Quoting Nick Shelton
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.

What are you talking about?
Permalink
| December 10, 2010, 5:24 pm
Quoting Nick Shelton
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.

http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/thumb_8dccc66e1f.jpg
Permalink
| December 10, 2010, 5:26 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

You are indeed correct, sir.

Yes, I guess you're all right(about free will).
Permalink
| December 11, 2010, 9:27 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
Ok, so if we don't have free will, and if God can control people, then WHY DO WE DISOBEY HIM?
It is illogical to think he's the one making us disobey him.

OK, you're right. You beat me.
Permalink
| December 11, 2010, 9:29 am
Quoting Nick Shelton
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.
You're starting to sound racist. Or are you joking? Or what?

Permalink
| December 11, 2010, 5:43 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

'Makes'? You look so far into that? Go look at the actual greek or latin translation. The meanings are a lot different sometimes than our actual wording.


Indeed. In about two and a half years of Latin study, I can say that words have many, many, many different translations. Look at the word "To look for", as an example (I forgot the real one, it starts with a P, I believe). At the most basic meaning, it's looking, go further and it's heading for somewhere, and even further, it's attacking somewhere. Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English surely changed some words.
Permalink
| December 11, 2010, 6:11 pm
Quoting Nick Shelton
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.


Correction: White men control blacks. They're not people, they're 3/5ths of a person. Get your facts right.
Permalink
| December 11, 2010, 6:12 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Well, Imma need to ask for Biblical verses stating God can see the future.

if He can, that completely demolishes Free will.

He can, Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you,
I appointed you a prophet to the nations" That's what God said to Jeremiah, he wouldn't have done that if he hadn't known how good of a prophet Jeremiah would make. Jesus also had told his disciples multiple times that he would be betrayed, and crucified(example: Matthew 20:17). He told Peter that he would deny Him thee times tonight(Mark 14:29-31, 66-72). There, better than the last ones?
Permalink
| December 13, 2010, 9:13 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

Exactly! I have an older bro who studied both of those languages, and many controversial verses could be veeery different.
Including some of the verses in Genesis 1.

Permalink
| December 13, 2010, 9:15 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Well, Imma need to ask for Biblical verses stating God can see the future.

if He can, that completely demolishes Free will.

If you dont think God can see the future, you need to reconsider your position as a moderator.
GOD IS OMNISCIENT(all-knowing) AND HE CAN DO ANYTHING!!!!!
Permalink
| December 14, 2010, 8:37 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Woah, bro, you're saying because of my Religous beliefs I shouldn't be a Moderator?
That's low, bro.

Secondly, when you talk in all caps, it makes you look like a trigger-happy 7-year old.

As for your point about God being Ominpresent:
Let's say a Basketball team made it to the Playoffs, something they're state has never done. They'd all be afraid, right?
That means that the fear is Omnipresent.

So then, by your logic, Fear can see the future, no?


Ok first paragraph:no, I think that if you dont think God can do anything you should reconsider your position
2nd paragraph:so professional
3rd paragraph:I said omniscient, not omnipresent.
4th paragraph:ha.
Permalink
| December 15, 2010, 8:47 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
Bro, when you say 'If you don't think God can do anything you should reconsider your position', you ARE basing this on MY religion, don't dance around that.
'2nd paragraph: so professional'
Right, because replying 'Ha' to my question is so professional, too.
And can you show me where it says in the Bible God is Omniscient? I would like a verse that DOES NOT Come from God or Jesus Christ.

romans 16:27
Permalink
| December 15, 2010, 2:42 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Uhm, well, those are all things God/Jesus did.
Like, if I told you 'On Tue. the 14th I will go to mocpages.com', does that mean I can see the future?

No.

How could Jesus know that Peter would deny him three times? Or that Judas would betray him? Or that he would be found guilty?
Permalink
| December 15, 2010, 8:05 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Bro, when you say 'If you don't think God can do anything you should reconsider your position', you ARE basing this on MY religion, don't dance around that.
'2nd paragraph: so professional'
Right, because replying 'Ha' to my question is so professional, too.
And can you show me where it says in the Bible God is Omniscient? I would like a verse that DOES NOT Come from God or Jesus Christ.

Why can't it come from God or Jesus?
Permalink
| December 15, 2010, 11:22 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
Bro, when you say 'If you don't think God can do anything you should reconsider your position', you ARE basing this on MY religion, don't dance around that.
'2nd paragraph: so professional'
Right, because replying 'Ha' to my question is so professional, too.
And can you show me where it says in the Bible God is Omniscient? I would like a verse that DOES NOT Come from God or Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:18, "I will be...Says the Lord Almighty" He is Almighty, he can see into the future.
Permalink
| December 15, 2010, 11:26 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
How could Jesus know that Peter would deny him three times? Or that Judas would betray him? Or that he would be found guilty?

amen
Permalink
| December 16, 2010, 9:35 am
Quoting Phazezorz .
That just states God is 'wise', bro.

Course, it could be the version of the Bible I'm reading (I think it's NIV, it sure does sound like it).


Try Job 31:4.
Permalink
| December 17, 2010, 11:36 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
It could very well be in present-tense, like Job asking a slightly rhetorical question.

Again, I just have a hard time thinking that God can see the future while he still gives us free will. It just kinda contradicts itself.

God gives us a choise even though he knows what we are going to choose. I think of it as a way of teaching us.
Permalink
| December 17, 2010, 11:49 pm
Quoting Phazezorz .
It could very well be in present-tense, like Job asking a slightly rhetorical question.

Again, I just have a hard time thinking that God can see the future while he still gives us free will. It just kinda contradicts itself.


He knows the future, he does not control it.
Permalink
| December 17, 2010, 11:49 pm
Quoting Brick Star

He knows the future, he does not control it.

I think he does control the future there are just certain areas where he let's us choose.
Permalink
| December 17, 2010, 11:54 pm
Quoting Commander Axiom
I think he does control the future there are just certain areas where he let's us choose.


But not us fiscally. That would be creepy.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:12 am
Quoting Brick Star

But not us fiscally. That would be creepy.

No, he does not and that's why we have a choise of good or evil.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:18 am
Quoting Commander Axiom
No, he does not and that's why we have a choise of good or evil.


Gotta love it! :D
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:25 am
Quoting Brick Star

He knows the future, he does not control it.

He can control it though
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:47 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
He can control it though


Yes but he can't make me FISCALLY do something.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:50 am
Quoting Brick Star
Yes but he can't make me FISCALLY do something.

So, pray tell, how do you go from "God is almighty and can do anything" to "God can do anything EXCEPT tell me how to spend my money"?

Let's be honest here, if God ever nudges you in the direction of a charity, it'll be more in the sense of someone coming up to you and asking you if you'd like to donate some money to them.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 1:29 am
Quoting Areetsa C
So, pray tell, how do you go from "God is almighty and can do anything" to "God can do anything EXCEPT tell me how to spend my money"?

Let's be honest here, if God ever nudges you in the direction of a charity, it'll be more in the sense of someone coming up to you and asking you if you'd like to donate some money to them.





yes, but if someone walks up to you and asks for charity money, god does not MAKE you reach for you money and MAKE you give him some. You get a choice.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 1:43 am
Quoting Brick Star
yes, but if someone walks up to you and asks for charity money, god does not MAKE you reach for you money and MAKE you give him some. You get a choice.

Eh, you said "can't". You didn't say "won't".
"Can't" directly implies a lack of ability, "won't" directly implies plenty of ability but a desire to not use it.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:01 am
Quoting Areetsa C
So, pray tell, how do you go from "God is almighty and can do anything" to "God can do anything EXCEPT tell me how to spend my money"?

Let's be honest here, if God ever nudges you in the direction of a charity, it'll be more in the sense of someone coming up to you and asking you if you'd like to donate some money to them.

He can nudge you to do something but He wont force you. We have a free will.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:06 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
But if God wasn't created,then God doesn't exists.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:32 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill

Perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it/they is/are not perfect.
We are made in God's image and we are not perfect so therefore God isn't perfect either.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:37 pm
My theory on the subject on the world,is that where just an insignificant blemish on the face of a much bigger scale of reality. At the end of "Men in black" it shows us (the world) as marble in a bag,that sums up the worlds pretty neatly.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 12:41 pm
Quoting Little Ewok
Quoting Anders Cutterhill

Perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it/they is/are not perfect.
We are made in God's image and we are not perfect so therefore God isn't perfect either.

Oh Little Ewok, I can't believe I just heard that from you. Scripture speaks many times of God's perfection and His perfect Word (His most direct manifestation of Himself to us).

Psalm 18:30 (New American Standard Bible)
"As for God, His way is blameless; the word of the LORD is tried; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him."

Deuteronomy 32:4 (New American Standard Bible)
"The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He."

Psalm 12:6 (New American Standard Bible)
"The words of the LORD are pure words; as silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times."

Psalm 19:7 (New American Standard Bible)
"The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 145:17 (New American Standard Bible)
"The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds."

We are created in God's image, but it does not mean we are exactly like Him. How are we created in His image then? We have the ability to create, to invent, to make new things. No animal does. Beavers build dams the same way they did a thousand years ago. Birds build nests the same. Foxes dig the same dens. But not man. We can take the raw materials God has provided us with and we can make new things. That is how we are different from animals and created in His image.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 1:55 pm
Quoting Brick Star

Yes but he can't make me FISCALLY do something.

Couldn't He though? Do you ever feel compelled to give money for something or to buy something with money you have?

Proverbs 16:9 (New American Standard Bible)
"The mind of man plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps."

Proverbs 19:21 (New American Standard Bible)
"Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand."

Proverbs 20:24 (New American Standard Bible)
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, how then can man understand his way?"

In other words, you might make plans to do something or to give to something or to buy something. God may choose to let you do that. Or, He might make you spend that money in a different way. So, yes, He does indeed control you fiscally.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:05 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
But if God wasn't created,then God doesn't exists.

Well if you believe in evolution than you believe in matter that wasn't created. So doesn't it seem better to believe in an eternal god rather than eternal matter.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:06 pm
OK, I admit I haven't read these things before. But, if you think God is so perfect, what is your view on what this topic started off as, evil and bad things that happen?
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:10 pm
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Couldn't He though? Do you ever feel compelled to give money for something or to buy something with money you have?

Proverbs 16:9 (New American Standard Bible)
"The mind of man plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps."



Proverbs 19:21 (New American Standard Bible)
"Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand."

Proverbs 20:24 (New American Standard Bible)
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, how then can man understand his way?"

In other words, you might make plans to do something or to give to something or to buy something. God may choose to let you do that. Or, He might make you spend that money in a different way. So, yes, He does indeed control you fiscally.


I never thought about it like that, thanks bro.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:19 pm
Quoting Little Ewok
OK, I admit I haven't read these things before. But, if you think God is so perfect, what is your view on what this topic started off as, evil and bad things that happen?

God gives all of us a choise, he doesn't force you to do wrong.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:20 pm
Quoting Commander Axiom
Well if you believe in evolution than you believe in matter that wasn't created. So doesn't it seem better to believe in an eternal god rather than eternal matter.

Evolution is the belief that species adapt to their enviroment over time, and has almost nothing to do with matter and its creation.

Next time you plan on participating in a discussion, at least know what you're talking about.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 2:23 pm
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great

Correction: White men control blacks. They're not people, they're 3/5ths of a person. Get your facts right.
How dare you be so ignorant and racist,People are people and we should alll have the same amount of respect for one and other.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 3:32 pm
Quoting Nick Shelton
Evil? The only evil in this world is the black race.

God controls man. Men control black people. This is how it always was, this is how it will always be.
Don't be so ignorant and naive people are people and we are all the same in our souls, don't let racism corrupt you.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 3:40 pm
Quoting Commander Axiom
Well if you believe in evolution than you believe in matter that wasn't created. So doesn't it seem better to believe in an eternal god rather than eternal matter.
I don't believe in evolution,i know it exists there's proof that it exists,just go to your natural history museum, and no it doesn't seem better to believe in a eternal life there the biggest flame war(and war) starter known to man,crusade was started because the crusaders wanted the arab nations to believe in christianity and that was a war.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 3:51 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
But if God wasn't created,then God doesn't exists.

God always is. I know you cant understand it, nobody can.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 3:52 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
Evolution is the belief that species adapt to their enviroment over time, and has almost nothing to do with matter and its creation.

Next time you plan on participating in a discussion, at least know what you're talking about.

I was speaking of the Big Bang.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:15 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great

Correction: White men control blacks. They're not people, they're 3/5ths of a person. Get your facts right.
How dare you be so censored word and racist,People are people and we should alll have the same amount of respect for one and other.


How dare you be so unknowing of history. Back in the 1780s or so, when the Constitution was first being written, a compromise between North and South was reached, that blacks would be 3/5ths of a person. That way, the South wouldn't have that big of a voting advantage, but it wouldn't loose the advantage either.

By the way, it's called trolling.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:15 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
God always is. I know you cant understand it, nobody can.

Yes.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:16 pm
Quoting Brick Star

Yes but he can't make me FISCALLY do something.

Yes he can, he is almighty.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:17 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
But if God wasn't created,then God doesn't exists.

He is eternal.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:17 pm
Quoting Little Ewok
Quoting Anders Cutterhill

Perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it/they is/are not perfect.
We are made in God's image and we are not perfect so therefore God isn't perfect either.
We were not made as exact replicas of God.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:17 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Commander Axiom
Well if you believe in evolution than you believe in matter that wasn't created. So doesn't it seem better to believe in an eternal god rather than eternal matter.
I don't believe in evolution,i know it exists there's proof that it exists,just go to your natural history museum, and no it doesn't seem better to believe in a eternal life there the biggest flame war(and war) starter known to man,crusade was started because the crusaders wanted the arab nations to believe in christianity and that was a war.

My point is that it takes faith to believe in evolution.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:17 pm
Quoting Commander Axiom
Well if you believe in evolution than you believe in matter that wasn't created. So doesn't it seem better to believe in an eternal god rather than eternal matter.

All matter was created by God at the big bang, it is not eternal. God is.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:20 pm
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great

How dare you be so unknowing of history. Back in the 1780s or so, when the Constitution was first being written, a compromise between North and South was reached, that blacks would be 3/5ths of a person. That way, the South wouldn't have that big of a voting advantage, but it wouldn't loose the advantage either.

By the way, it's called trolling.
Well its time for me to boil my head,humble pie is in order, i face desk my self , i should deck myself for being so silly,i'am very sorry, You get the picture.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 4:39 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yes he can, he is almighty.

He can, but he won't.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 5:06 pm
Quoting First Pie
Yes, but that doesn't stand in our today world.
They are 5/5 a person like God wanted us.


Then Early Americans were wrong.

What else were they wrong about?

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 5:23 pm
Quoting First Pie
You said Early. By that you mean Young American.

Well of course he did. The correct term is actually Early Americans, because he is talking about a time period of people, not a person or some people.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 5:55 pm
Quoting First Pie
American is a person. We make up it's body.

Early Americans, meaning the entire body.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 6:16 pm
Quoting Little Ewok
OK, I admit I haven't read these things before. But, if you think God is so perfect, what is your view on what this topic started off as, evil and bad things that happen?

Quoting Areetsa C
My personal opinion is more to the effect that, well, A: allowing people to have free will is probably half the reason God does anything, and B: God therefore doesn't control what people do. Not directly, anyway.

Now, since people who don't believe in God don't tend to pay any attention to the Commandments, Love Thy Neighbor and so forth, they don't have the Christian ethical system. Most people in the Western world seem to believe in the concept of Evolution, which is directly associated with Darwinism; I.E., people are chemicals that just magically decided to turn into germs, which magically turned into fish which magically turned into people, and therefore there's no difference between a human and a fish and a puddle of slime. So, if you don't believe you're going to be accountable to a higher power when you die, and you don't believe humans are any different from animals, what's going to stop you from doing whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like? I mean, there's no reason NOT to break into a house and steal all of someone's possessions, just as there's no reason not to reach into a chook's nest and steal its eggs (unless of course it's someone else's chook).

So evil isn't a problem of God allowing things, it's more a problem of people not choosing to recognize God's authority.



Quoting Glenn streeter
I don't believe in evolution,i know it exists there's proof that it exists,just go to your natural history museum, and no it doesn't seem better to believe in a eternal life there the biggest flame war(and war) starter known to man,crusade was started because the crusaders wanted the arab nations to believe in christianity and that was a war.

You DO know that the whole concept of Evolution is incompatible with Christianity, right?

As for the Crusades, no, those were a result of the various monarchs wanting a slice of the Eastern pie, and talking the Pope into giving them an excuse to go over there and squish heathens.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 7:12 pm
Quoting First Pie
God controls the big stuff. The little things, like should I go outside or not, is under my control. Thinking God can control you're every move is called fatalism. "I'm failing math. Oh well, that means I'm meant to fail math."
No. That's not how God controls our life. We get to have a choice on things and that's why there's evil.
Stephen Michel is right, he can, but he won't.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 7:13 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Quoting Areetsa C
My personal opinion is more to the effect that, well, A: allowing people to have free will is probably half the reason God does anything, and B: God therefore doesn't control what people do. Not directly, anyway.

Now, since people who don't believe in God don't tend to pay any attention to the Commandments, Love Thy Neighbor and so forth, they don't have the Christian ethical system. Most people in the Western world seem to believe in the concept of Evolution, which is directly associated with Darwinism; I.E., people are chemicals that just magically decided to turn into germs, which magically turned into fish which magically turned into people, and therefore there's no difference between a human and a fish and a puddle of slime. So, if you don't believe you're going to be accountable to a higher power when you die, and you don't believe humans are any different from animals, what's going to stop you from doing whatever you feel like to whomever you feel like? I mean, there's no reason NOT to break into a house and steal all of someone's possessions, just as there's no reason not to reach into a chook's nest and steal its eggs (unless of course it's someone else's chook).

So evil isn't a problem of God allowing things, it's more a problem of people not choosing to recognize God's authority.



Quoting Glenn streeter
I don't believe in evolution,i know it exists there's proof that it exists,just go to your natural history museum, and no it doesn't seem better to believe in a eternal life there the biggest flame war(and war) starter known to man,crusade was started because the crusaders wanted the arab nations to believe in christianity and that was a war.

You DO know that the whole concept of Evolution is incompatible with Christianity, right?

As for the Crusades, no, those were a result of the various monarchs wanting a slice of the Eastern pie, and talking the Pope into giving them an excuse to go over there and squish heathens.

Yes!
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 9:20 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting First Pie
God controls the big stuff. The little things, like should I go outside or not, is under my control. Thinking God can control you're every move is called fatalism. "I'm failing math. Oh well, that means I'm meant to fail math."
No. That's not how God controls our life. We get to have a choice on things and that's why there's evil.
Stephen Michel is right, he can, but he won't.

Yes. He could, but he respects our human rights and our free will.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 9:25 pm
Quoting Areetsa C

You DO know that the whole concept of Evolution is incompatible with Christianity, right?

It is compatible. Christianity does mean "believes in a literal translation of every passage in the Bible", it means "Believes that Jesus Christ is our savior, who lived died and rose again, forgiving all of our sins".

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 10:02 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It is compatible. Christianity does mean "believes in a literal translation of every passage in the Bible", it means "Believes that Jesus Christ is our savior, who lived died and rose again, forgiving all of our sins".

Ehm, no. The whole Old Testament was about proving that people couldn't get to heaven just by being good people, and needed God's grace to get there. And the Old Testament doesn't hold together without Genesis.

"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." "Millions of years of death and suffering" means "very good" now? So you're saying the "pre-Adam" humans dying like flies was still part of the "very good" Creation? So, just by being a few genes different to Adam made them less than flies, so that their deaths had no effect on the perfect, sufferingless Eden?
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 10:45 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
If there is no God, how is there a universe?

We could say that the universe has always existed. As for your question on evil, it is a natural part of us all. Humans are the greatest evil there is. They are cruel to one another and other species. Why does evil exist? It is needed to survive, but to much is a horrid thing.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 11:05 pm
Quoting Little Ewok
OK, I admit I haven't read these things before. But, if you think God is so perfect, what is your view on what this topic started off as, evil and bad things that happen?

I think this verse by Paul describes it perfectly. The evil, sin and suffering are here so that we can grow and be strengthened, and then draw closer to Christ so we may be more like Him in the end.

2 Corinthians 12:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
"Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 11:12 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Ehm, no. The whole Old Testament was about proving that people couldn't get to heaven just by being good people, and needed God's grace to get there. And the Old Testament doesn't hold together without Genesis.

"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." "Millions of years of death and suffering" means "very good" now? So you're saying the "pre-Adam" humans dying like flies was still part of the "very good" Creation? So, just by being a few genes different to Adam made them less than flies, so that their deaths had no effect on the perfect, sufferingless Eden?
What? I don't understand where you got that conclusion from. Isn't there suffering in the world? Is that what you call a very good creation? Seriously, good does not mean good from the eyes of man in that context. And that doesn't say that evolution is not compatible anyway.

Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 11:46 pm
Quoting Majic The Imaginative ...
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
If there is no God, how is there a universe?

We could say that the universe has always existed. As for your question on evil, it is a natural part of us all. Humans are the greatest evil there is. They are cruel to one another and other species. Why does evil exist? It is needed to survive, but to much is a horrid thing.

Yeah, that makes sense.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 11:47 pm
Quoting First Pie
That's what I just said.

OK, I misunderstood.
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| December 18, 2010, 11:47 pm
Quoting Anders Cutterhill
So you're basically saying that the universe had to be created by something, but God appeared out of nowhere?

God did not appear, He always has bean here.
Permalink
| December 18, 2010, 11:49 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
What? I don't understand where you got that conclusion from. Isn't there suffering in the world? Is that what you call a very good creation? Seriously, good does not mean good from the eyes of man in that context. And that doesn't say that evolution is not compatible anyway.

Did you even READ my post? I specifically said that the Old Testament doesn't hold together without Genesis, and the New Testament doesn't make sense without the Old. When God finished making things, somewhere in Genesis, it said "and He saw that it was very good".

"Evolution" requires millions of years of dead animals to weed out the weak ones, and the same goes for the humans. You're saying God used Evolution in the Creation. Therefore, either you're saying God thinks lots and lots of death and suffering is "good" or you're saying you think God is evil.
Permalink
| December 19, 2010, 12:01 am
Quoting Areetsa C
Did you even READ my post? I specifically said that the Old Testament doesn't hold together without Genesis, and the New Testament doesn't make sense without the Old. When God finished making things, somewhere in Genesis, it said "and He saw that it was very good".

"Evolution" requires millions of years of dead animals to weed out the weak ones, and the same goes for the humans. You're saying God used Evolution in the Creation. Therefore, either you're saying God thinks lots and lots of death and suffering is "good" or you're saying you think God is evil.

Yes I did read your post. There is lots of death and suffering in the world either way. God does not think lots of death and suffering is good. God thinks his own creations are good.I'll just use LEGO creations as an example. If you build a LEGO bomber, or tank or war vehicle, the is definitely potential there for violence, yet you still like your creation, right?
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| December 19, 2010, 12:21 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yes I did read your post. There is lots of death and suffering in the world either way. God does not think lots of death and suffering is good. God thinks his own creations are good.I'll just use LEGO creations as an example. If you build a LEGO bomber, or tank or war vehicle, the is definitely potential there for violence, yet you still like your creation, right?

God took 7 days, not 700 ba-jillion years, to create the universe.
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| December 19, 2010, 8:37 pm
Quoting The Lego Man ...

We need Mudskipper 4.


Hey, thanks man.

Permalink
| December 19, 2010, 11:37 pm
Quoting Glenn streeter
Quoting Bob the inconceivably voracious turkey consumer
God was not created, thus he does not have a place of origin.
But if God wasn't created,then God doesn't exists.


Frankly, it's incompressible to the human mind how something can have existed forever in the past. But think of it this way: if something created God, then how did that thing get there? Or the thing that made that? See? We could go forever backward on that too. So, God happens to be the one who was there forever backwards. The difference lies in whether or not you believe God to have sovereign control over every aspect of the universe. But that's it's own debate...

John 1:1-3 (New American Standard Bible)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Revelation 1:8 (New American Standard Bible)
"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

Psalm 90:2 (New American Standard Bible)
"Before the mountains were born or You gave birth to [created]the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God."
Permalink
| December 19, 2010, 11:48 pm
Quoting Stephen Michel
God took 7 days, not 700 ba-jillion years, to create the universe.

32,000,000,000 years.
Permalink
| December 21, 2010, 6:28 pm
Quoting Last Pie
NEIN!!! I went German on you!

Ja! I just went Swedish, German, Norwegian AND Danish on ya, while still managing to tell you that I disagree.
/wins
Permalink
| December 21, 2010, 6:34 pm
Quoting Last Pie
I wasn't talking to you!!!!!

Why so serious?
:P
Permalink
| December 21, 2010, 6:39 pm
Quoting Commander Axiom
My point is that it takes faith to believe in evolution.

It takes faith to believe in anything.
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| December 22, 2010, 11:46 am
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great
Ooh hoo, let's make some people angry:

God=No beginning, no end.
Universe=Unarguably has a point of origin (Read: redshift).
Therefore, the universe is expanding. But what happens later? Does it keep expanding? Maybe. Does it slow down and fall back in on itself? Maybe. If so, is this expansion period just a follow-up to a crunching period, and that a follow-up to an expansion period? Is the universe just going in and out, like some kind of eternal rebound? Perhaps...

Universe=No beginning, no end.
God=No beginning, no end.
Universe=God?

Intriguing...I like it.
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| February 12, 2011, 8:51 pm
ok there is a god people stop thinking that their is no god ok?god made everthing and he already existed before time and space.the reason that there is sin is because of adam and eve's sin and god said there punishment was to leave the garden of edan and have death and sin.
Permalink
| February 12, 2011, 8:59 pm
Quoting Adam Weaver
ok there is a god people stop thinking that their is no god ok?

The eloquence with which your argument is written, and the logical excellence thereof, is astounding.
Permalink
| February 13, 2011, 12:53 am
Quoting Adam Weaver
ok there is a god people stop thinking that their is no god ok?god made everthing and he already existed before time and space.the reason that there is sin is because of adam and eve's sin and god said there punishment was to leave the garden of edan and have death and sin.

I never thought there was no God. Why would God allow Adam to sin, why would He give him the opportunity if he knew Adam would do wrong? I'm sure God has his reasons, God is always reasonable.
Permalink
| February 25, 2011, 10:23 am
Quoting W Mark
God created evil so we could be good. It sounds a little wacky, but think about it. Without evil, we would have no choice but to be good. Therefore we'd be incapable of showing our love for God because we'd always love Him, by default. However, if we are given the chance to be evil, we can show our love for God by being good despite having the option to do otherwise.


Well said W Mark. That's what I belive. One thing I would add, the Bible says that God didn't neccisarily create evil, evil is a bi-product of our disobedience. Of course, everything goes according to God's will - He knew we'd sin against him and therefore 'evil' would come about, but it is all part of His plan. Read Romans 9: 19-24, this is a great scripture for evil and good conversation.

Permalink
| March 21, 2011, 6:52 pm
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