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Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 8:23 am
So we just had a farce in MOColympics. I think that would be fun to discuss.
Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 9:02 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So we just had a farce in MOColympics. I think that would be fun to discuss.
What do you mean?

Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 12:47 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So we just had a farce in MOColympics. I think that would be fun to discuss.
What do you mean?

American christian neo-fundamentalists conceded the competition becaus they had to build something inspired by the Zodiac.

What they did not know though, is that christianity is based on the Zodiac.
Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 3:07 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
American christian neo-fundamentalists conceded the competition becaus they had to build something inspired by the Zodiac.

That whole thing was ridiculous.
Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 10:51 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
What they did not know though, is that Christianity is based on the Zodiac.

Where did you get a crazy idea like that?
Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus did not teach the zodiac.

As an aside, I think building a MOC inspired by the zodiac is probably about as sacrilegious as using names like "Wednesday" or "Tuesday" for week days.
Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 10:56 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
That whole thing was ridiculous.

Definitely.
Permalink
| September 5, 2013, 10:56 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
American christian neo-fundamentalists conceded the competition becaus they had to build something inspired by the Zodiac.

Symbols have meaning, and some people don't want to take risks.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
What they did not know though, is that christianity is based on the Zodiac.

Do tell.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 1:40 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
American christian neo-fundamentalists conceded the competition becaus they had to build something inspired by the Zodiac.

What they did not know though, is that christianity is based on the Zodiac.

*cough-Dan-Brown-cough*

But your point is valid. But I'm going to try not to get involved on this one. I'll annoy too many people.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 3:32 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Where did you get a crazy idea like that?
Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus did not teach the zodiac.

As an aside, I think building a MOC inspired by the zodiac is probably about as sacrilegious as using names like "Wednesday" or "Tuesday" for week days.
Exactly. I was about to reply but you have done it too well.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 6:45 am
First of all, it began the same time as the astrological year of the fish began. The fish are constantly used as symbols. There are exactly as many "deities" in the new testament as there are main deities in most mille eastern politheistic religions. In the original, untranslated bible, the word translarable as "age" (ending in 2125) is used a lot more than what would be considered "world". Christmas symbolizes rhe beginning of days getting longer.

There is a lot of this stuff, at least in the New testament.

A lot more than in Koran.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:19 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
First of all, it began the same time as the astrological year of the fish began. The fish are constantly used as symbols. There are exactly as many "deities" in the new testament as there are main deities in most mille eastern politheistic religions. In the original, untranslated bible, the word translarable as "age" (ending in 2125) is used a lot more than what would be considered "world". Christmas symbolizes rhe beginning of days getting longer.

There is a lot of this stuff, at least in the New testament.

A lot more than in Koran.
References? Sources? Are you a scholar in Biblical Greek?
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:43 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
First of all, it began the same time as the astrological year of the fish began. The fish are constantly used as symbols. There are exactly as many "deities" in the new testament as there are main deities in most mille eastern politheistic religions. In the original, untranslated bible, the word translarable as "age" (ending in 2125) is used a lot more than what would be considered "world". Christmas symbolizes rhe beginning of days getting longer.

There is a lot of this stuff, at least in the New testament.

A lot more than in Koran.
References? Sources? Are you a scholar in Biblical Greek?

I have read the Bible and the Koran, so I know what I am talking about. As for the external sources and studies, it would be kind of hard to really find again. The symbology and comparisons with other zodiac-based religions is pretty interesting.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 10:14 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
First of all, it began the same time as the astrological year of the fish began. The fish are constantly used as symbols.

Having a fishing metaphor =/= astrology.

As for the 'astrological year of of the fish', that's a astrology thing, not a christian thing.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
There are exactly as many "deities" in the new testament as there are main deities in most mille eastern politheistic religions.

One =/= polytheism.

If you're talking about the Trinity business, three ways of looking at the same thing =/= three seperate gods.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In the original, untranslated bible, the word translarable as "age" (ending in 2125) is used a lot more than what would be considered "world".

I think google translate was not your friend when it came to that sentence.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Christmas symbolizes rhe beginning of days getting longer.

Of course it does, it's a hijacked solstice festival.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 10:28 am
I think it's safe to say this is the most ridiculously broad topic so far.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 12:37 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I have read the Bible and the Koran, so I know what I am talking about. As for the external sources and studies, it would be kind of hard to really find again. The symbology and comparisons with other zodiac-based religions is pretty interesting.
If you do not cite external sources, how can I tell you're not making stuff up?
Just having read the Bible is not enough to make claims to the meanings of the untranslated Greek words.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 3:32 pm
I'm going to try and keep my comments here to a minimum, but if anyone asks, I'll make my views known:

Interesting point:
In Genesis, the Christian God says something along the lines of "worship no other gods but me". In fact, I think in some versions there's something about him being a jealous god. Regardless, never is it actually said that the Christian god is the only god.

Deus is actually correct:
Quite a lot of Christianity is based on or changed to fit "Pagan" ceremonies and customs.
Sorry, I have to resist the urge to give you my opinion on religion now.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 4:52 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I'm going to try and keep my comments here to a minimum, but if anyone asks, I'll make my views known:

Interesting point:
In Genesis, the Christian God says smething along the lines of "worship no other gods but me". In fact, I think in some versions there's something about him being a jealous god. Regardless, never is it actually said that the Christian god is the only god.

Deus is actually correct:
Quite a lot of Christianity is based on or changed to fit "Pagan" ceremonies and customs.
Sorry, I have to resist the urge to give you my opinion on religion now.

Oh, true. I read a (laic) book on angels and it said something such.

But I remember some parts that would approve of your statement. Baal'zabub and half of the revelation.


Anyways, if reading the Bible was not enough to analyze it, how were the first analisysi made?
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 5:51 pm
Quoting Josh B.
I think it's safe to say this is the most ridiculously broad topic so far.

Kind of. But sadly, it is not. It is christianity (american christian neo-fundamentalism) versus atheism.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 5:52 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Kind of. But sadly, it is not. It is christianity (american christian neo-fundamentalism) versus atheism.

I am not a neo-fundementalist.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 6:35 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Oh, true. I read a (laic) book on angels and it said something such.

But I remember some parts that would approve of your statement. Baal'zabub and half of the revelation.
It all depends on how you define god. God capital-G is a title applied to a single being. With a lower case g, god can refer to many different things, including angels and demons.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyways, if reading the Bible was not enough to analyze it, how were the first analisysi made?
Reading the Bible is a enough to analyze it, but you made a claim about the untranslated version, which means you have to have studied biblical Greek, and have read the untranslated Bible.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 6:40 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Deus is actually correct:
Quite a lot of Christianity is based on or changed to fit "Pagan" ceremonies and customs.
Sorry, I have to resist the urge to give you my opinion on religion now.

The claim Deus made was specifically about the Zodiac, not about pagan rituals in general. It may be true that some Christian traditions have been influenced by non-Christian religions, but to claim that Christianity is based on the Zodiac is completely incorrect.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 6:45 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
The claim Deus made was specifically about the Zodiac, not about pagan rituals in general. It may be true that some Christian traditions have been influenced by non-Christian religions, but to claim that Christianity is based on the Zodiac is completely incorrect.

Okay, you asked for it:


!!!DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for crisis of faith that results from reading the following paragraphs. I am not seeking to cause offense. If you do not agree, please do not rant at me. If you wish not to hear things that may upset you, do not read this. DISCLAIMER!!!


Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line

Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin, humans had no understanding of how they came to be, and no real incentive for obeying laws.

So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"

Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.

Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomenae of the universe.

Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.

And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

There you go
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:01 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
The claim Deus made was specifically about the Zodiac, not about pagan rituals in general. It may be true that some Christian traditions have been influenced by non-Christian religions, but to claim that Christianity is based on the Zodiac is completely incorrect.

It's not you know
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:02 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible

Okay, you brought this upon youself:


!!!DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for crisis of faith that results from reading the following paragraphs. My views are my own. If you do not agree, please do not rant at me. If you wish not to hear things that may upset you, do not read this. DISCLAIMER!!!


Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line

Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin, humans had no understanding of how they came to be, and no real incentive for obeying laws.

So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"

Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.

Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomenae of the universe.

Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.

And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

There you go
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:03 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Oh, true. I read a (laic) book on angels and it said something such.

But I remember some parts that would approve of your statement. Baal'zabub and half of the revelation.
It all depends on how you define god. God capital-G is a title applied to a single being. With a lower case g, god can refer to many different things, including angels and demons.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyways, if reading the Bible was not enough to analyze it, how were the first analisysi made?
Reading the Bible is a enough to analyze it, but you made a claim about the untranslated version, which means you have to have studied biblical Greek, and have read the untranslated Bible.

Angels and demons are classified as lower mythological creatures. Even archangels and devils.

And also. "Vsi jeziki bodo slavili Boga." Meaning "All languages will hail God," or something in the lines. I am saying there are many different translations. Read some 90's one and compared in Russian and German.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:34 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I am not a neo-fundementalist.

96% of MOCpages is.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:37 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Kind of. But sadly, it is not. It is christianity (american christian neo-fundamentalism) versus atheism.


To be fair, those are the two main stances I would assume at least in the United States, which I assume is where most here are from. I have very little knowledge on specifics for religion as well as atheism, so it's not really my place to argue either side. And to expect anyone here to have enough knowledge to be able to effectively represent any side is foolish, and I'm not entirely sure what the argument is.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:45 pm
Some observations on religion in general:

People do crazy things in the name of their god. It gets a lot of people killed.

It is a source for an awful lot of bigotry and hatred.

It is outdated and no longer necessary to keep people under control, which was more than likely the original purpose of institutionalized religions.

Lastly, there is no evidence for any religion that is anywhere compelling enough to make belief logical.

There are more I might post later. Not to mention all the arguments I have against Christianity specifically.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:53 pm
I'm surprised no one's bothered replying to my big long rant
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:58 pm
Quoting Josh B.

I'm not entirely sure what the argument is.

I think this is more of a topic where people can give and discuss any opinions or thoughts on religion in general. I see your point on this being a really, really broad topic, but I expect it to have several mini-debates in it as well as the atheist v. Christian one.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 7:58 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Quoting Josh B.

I'm not entirely sure what the argument is.

I see your point on this being a really, really broad topic, but I expect it to have several mini-debates in it as well as the atheist v. Christian one.

Well that's unfortunate, as I'm not atheist nor Christian :P
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:02 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I'm surprised no one's bothered replying to my big long rant

Workin' on it!
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:19 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Workin' on it!

Ah
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:23 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Some observations on religion in general:

People do crazy things in the name of their god. It gets a lot of people killed.

It is a source for an awful lot of bigotry and hatred.
That's true. But hatred, bigotry, and violence are human things not unique to religion.
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is outdated and no longer necessary to keep people under control, which was more than likely the original purpose of institutionalized religions.
Religion is so fundamental to humanity that it can never be outdated. It's purpose is not to keep people under control, but to give them a sense of purpose and hope for a better world.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Lastly, there is no evidence for any religion that is anywhere compelling enough to make belief logical.
There is no reason to not believe in God, I think. Think about it this way: If you're right and there is no God, there is no ultimate benefit to you nor to anyone else. You were right, so what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God, then he's certainly not someone you want to risk offending. Really, this is a high-risk, low benefit situation. Not believing in God is a lose-lose: you either get punishment or nothing.

As far as particular religions go, I follow Christianity for two reasons: Firstly, it best matches my own experiences with God. Secondly, it is fulfilling spiritually, and I can trust that the fate of my soul is in good hands.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:32 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, you asked for it:


!!!DISCLAIMER: I am not responsible for crisis of faith that results from reading the following paragraphs. I am not seeking to cause offense. If you do not agree, please do not rant at me. If you wish not to hear things that may upset you, do not read this. DISCLAIMER!!!

Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line
Wrong. First of all, religion was not suddenly made up by a small group of people like you seem to think, but was developed gradually out of the basic human desire to understand God. Second of all, religion's fundamental purpose is to give people a sense of purpose. Everything that happens happens for a reason. Even if the reason is not obvious to humans, God has a reason.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin,...
Darwin's theory is completely irrelevant to the question of whether religion is true. Please, don't try to bring it into this discussion.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate . ...humans had no understanding of how they came to be,..
They did have understanding: The understood that they were made by God. They didn't understand the process, but they knew who started it.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate . ...and no real incentive for obeying laws.
So a militaristic government that brutally punishes criminals isn't incentive?
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"
This sounds really implausible. How and why would anyone come up with something like that?
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.
Don't you ever find it strange that some people are willing to be tortured to death rather than give up their religion?
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomena of the universe.
This somewhat true. People did start to come up with scientific explanations of phenomena, but this is not a better explanation, it is expanding on the religious view. Religion tells us that God makes stuff happen, science tells us how.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.
Both Galileo and Newton were strong Christians. They were not trying to undermine Christianity, nor refute religion.

Also, science has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

There you go
Thanks, I appreciate it.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:40 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is outdated and no longer necessary to keep people under control, which was more than likely the original purpose of institutionalized religions.
Religion is so fundamental to humanity that it can never be outdated. It's purpose is not to keep people under control, but to give them a sense of purpose and hope for a better world.

That's more of a touchy-feely interpretation of religion. The point is to go to heaven.
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Not believing in God is a lose-lose: you either get punishment or nothing.

Said perfectly!
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:42 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Angels and demons are classified as lower mythological creatures. Even archangels and devils.

And also. "Vsi jeziki bodo slavili Boga." Meaning "All languages will hail God," or something in the lines.
So how is this relevant? That language is not Greek (if Google Translate serves me, it's Slovenian).
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus I am saying there are many different translations. Read some 90's one and compared in Russian and German.
If you don't know Greek, and you don't cite sources, what basis do you have to claim that the Greek word in the Bible used for 'age' refers to something that will end around 2125?

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:47 pm
Quoting Michael K.
That's more of a touchy-feely interpretation of religion. The point is to go to heaven.
I left out the most important part.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:50 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
It's not you know

Christianity is based on the teaching of Jesus. When did Jesus ever mention the Zodiac?
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 8:55 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Not believing in God is a lose-lose: you either get punishment or nothing.


I'm still a bit lost as to why punishment is needed if someone does not believe in God.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:08 pm
Quoting Josh B.

I'm still a bit lost as to why punishment is needed if someone does not believe in God.

Obviously because if people still got to go to heaven without attending church, then priests would go hungry.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:15 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Symbols have meaning, and some people don't want to take risks.


Symbols only have meaning to the superstitious. For example, a certain symbol favoured by a little moustached dude has absolutely no meaning to me, it's aforementioned dude's actions which have meaning.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:18 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
If you do not cite external sources, how can I tell you're not making stuff up?

Honestly, I'd trust Deus more than most of the sources on the Bible out there. They all conflict, and three-quarters are written or funded by people with a stake in religion or no clue of what they're talking about.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:20 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
With a lower case g, god can refer to many different things, including angels and demons.

Are we not all gods? Are we not each God to ourselves... and to others? Is not a microbe a god of infinite space? We all shape the universe around us, and perhaps create infinite more. And we alone determine what is right and what is wrong. What is He11 and what is Heaven. Who is true and who is false.
And so does the microbe. So does the ant. So does every living creature. We all live, and through living are deities.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:26 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
As far as particular religions go, I follow Christianity for two reasons: Firstly, it best matches my own experiences with God. Secondly, it is fulfilling spiritually, and I can trust that the fate of my soul is in good hands.

I prefer to believe in what will get me the most gainful life, and should I die and my soul continue I will die with pleasure and face the next step. If God is worth believing in, he'd accept me to Heaven regardless of whether I was devote in life, and if he sends me down than he's no deity worth worship.
I will never through my life away in prayer in the hopes of pleasing a petty lord. I worship and believe in a God who is kindly and accepting, and who will never punish ignorance.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:36 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I prefer to believe in what will get me the most gainful life, and should I die and my soul continue I will die with pleasure and face the next step. If God is worth believing in, he'd accept me to Heaven regardless of whether I was devote in life, and if he sends me down than he's no deity worth worship.
I will never through my life away in prayer in the hopes of pleasing a petty lord. I worship and believe in a God who is kindly and accepting, and who will never punish ignorance.

This comment pleases me.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:39 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
But hatred, bigotry, and violence are human things not unique to religion.

But you can't argue that often it is specifically for religion.
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Religion is so fundamental to humanity that it can never be outdated. It's purpose is not to keep people under control, but to give them a sense of purpose and hope for a better world.

I have not believed in any sort of god for about two years, and I have not felt any sort of need to go back. In fact, I'd say that thse last two years have probably been better than any others. I have no need of a god.
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible There is no reason to not believe in God, I think. Think about it this way: If you're right and there is no God, there is no ultimate benefit to you nor to anyone else. You were right, so what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God, then he's certainly not someone you want to risk offending. Really, this is a high-risk, low benefit situation. Not believing in God is a lose-lose: you either get punishment or nothing.


Except
A)Once you have reached the conclusion that there is no God, you can't just suddenly decide to throw all of your logic and reasoning and thoughts of the last few years out the window and suddenly start believing.

and

B)Which god should I believe in to up my chances? There have been thousands of gods in the history of the world, and seeing as there are none with a more legitimate claim than the others, and you only believe in one, your chances of picking right are hardly any better than mine. AS for low risk, that is only partly true. There is occasionally persecution to worry about. Plus, I'd rather not give 10% of my wealth (for instance) to some religious institution on the off chance that I might have picked the one in 3000 that exists.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:45 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible

Everything that happens happens for a reason. Even if the reason is not obvious to humans, God has a reason.

Then we have no free will, and evil is OK because it fits into God's plan. Hitler was just a pawn in God's brilliant scheme.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Don't you ever find it strange that some people are willing to be tortured to death rather than give up their religion?
Yes. But only because I don't understand having that much conviction for something with no evidence at all to think it's true.
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Also, science has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
How can that be true? They both try to explain phenomena; one uses mythology and the other research and observation.

Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:51 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Obviously because if people still got to go to heaven without attending church, then priests would go hungry.

LOL
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:53 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Honestly, I'd trust Deus more than most of the sources on the Bible out there. They all conflict, and three-quarters are written or funded by people with a stake in religion or no clue of what they're talking about.

Deus has provided no evidence to support his claims. You have no reason other than blind faith to trust him.
Permalink
| September 6, 2013, 9:55 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Deus has provided no evidence to support his claims. You have no reason other than blind faith to trust him.

I think it could be fair to point out the irony in this comment.
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| September 6, 2013, 9:57 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Deus has provided no evidence to support his claims. You have no reason other than blind faith to trust him.

Hmm... You're religious, right? Do you have any other reason other than blind faith to trust in the Bible? ;)

And plus, I have known Deus for a while, and he really is quite a smart guy. I've checked enough of his statements to know that most are true.
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| September 6, 2013, 9:58 pm
Quoting Josh B.
I think it could be fair to point out the irony in this comment.

Dang, ninja'd. And Medieval Guy deleted his amusing commentary too...
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| September 6, 2013, 10:01 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Then we have no free will, and evil is OK because it fits into God's plan. Hitler was just a pawn in God's brilliant scheme.
There is no free will with just the laws of physics. Everything is determined by random chance paths of quantum particles. Hitler was just a random event caused by the motion of elections and quarks.
Evil is as OK as flipping a coin. You might get tails, but it's nobodies fault.

Perhaps God's plan takes free will into account.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Yes. But only because I don't understand having that much conviction for something with no evidence at all to think it's true.
Faith comes before understanding.
Quoting Medieval Guy How can that be true? They both try to explain phenomena; one uses mythology and the other research and observation.
Religion tries to explain metaphysical phenomena, like the meaning of life, and what the purpose of everything is, or what the ultimate origin of the universe (taken in a broad sense to include everything obeying physical laws). Science tries to explain how this world works and how it changes. I can see no connection.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:03 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Are we not all gods? Are we not each God to ourselves... and to others? Is not a microbe a god of infinite space?
It is not.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist We all shape the universe around us, and perhaps create infinite more. And we alone determine what is right and what is wrong. What is He11 and what is Heaven. Who is true and who is false.
How can our feeble minds tell what's true? Why not trust that God knows the truth and not worry about it? No matter what you believe, it does not change reality.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist And so does the microbe. So does the ant. So does every living creature. We all live, and through living are deities.
Living does not make something a deity. What power does it have? To perceive? Who has the power to conceive? Certainly not an ant or microbe. Even humans cannot come up with anything apart from recombining our observations.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:08 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I prefer to believe in what will get me the most gainful life, and should I die and my soul continue I will die with pleasure and face the next step. If God is worth believing in, he'd accept me to Heaven regardless of whether I was devote in life, and if he sends me down than he's no deity worth worship.
He doesn't send you down, you send yourself down.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist I will never through my life away in prayer in the hopes of pleasing a petty lord. I worship and believe in a God who is kindly and accepting, and who will never punish ignorance.
He does not punish ignorance: Ignorance is its own punishment.

Quoting Josh B.

I'm still a bit lost as to why punishment is needed if someone does not believe in God.
It's not, but people bring it on themselves.

You must understand, going down is not punishment inflicted by God. If you choose here on earth to reject God, then you cannot enter heaven. Why not? Because you don't want to. Heaven is being with God. I believe that if you don't want to follow Christ to heaven, there is another choice: To live in a world without God. This is the ultimate suffering, but you bring it upon yourself. If you refuse God's help, then no matter how much he loves you, he cannot bring you into heaven. It's like if someone asks to marry you: No matter how much they love or care about you, you still have the option to say no. If you are forced to marry someone you don't like, you'll want a divorce. In the same way, if God brought you to heaven even though you didn't accept him, you'd want to leave.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:12 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
How can our feeble minds tell what's true? Why not trust that God knows the truth and not worry about it? No matter what you believe, it does not change reality.

If there is a God, then our beliefs are shaped by his choosing. What we believe correct is God's will, no?
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Living does not make something a deity. What power does it have? To perceive? Who has the power to conceive? Certainly not an ant or microbe. Even humans cannot come up with anything apart from recombining our observations.

Life is a miracle, and only a deity can perform miracles their entire life.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:14 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Hmm... You're religious, right? Do you have any other reason other than blind faith to trust in the Bible? ;)

And plus, I have known Deus for a while, and he really is quite a smart guy. I've checked enough of his statements to know that most are true.

You prove my point. I've known God for a while, that's why I trust him.

I don't know Deus, so I don't trust him. You don't know God, so you don't trust Him.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:14 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
He doesn't send you down, you send yourself down.
He does not punish ignorance: Ignorance is its own punishment.

If Heaven is afterlife with God, and if ignorance removes God from personal reality, then God cannot exist.
No one would have ever seen Him, as no one would believe in Him, as no one would have told tales of Him, as no one would have ever seen Him.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:19 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
There is no free will with just the laws of physics. Everything is determined by random chance paths of quantum particles. Hitler was just a random event caused by the motion of elections and quarks.
Evil is as OK as flipping a coin. You might get tails, but it's nobodies fault.

Actually, while the existence of humans is probably random, human actions are not. People have the ability to reason.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Perhaps God's plan takes free will into account.
I certainly don't get that impression when I analyze the things Christians say. Sure, they claim it is free will, but they also claim that God knows everything and that he created each and every one of us. So, logically, he knows what all of us will do. Sounds to me like Christian belief systems and free will do not mix.

Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Faith comes before understanding.

And that is why I do not have any, because that is backwards thinking. At least, the way I look at it.
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Religion tries to explain metaphysical phenomena, like the meaning of life, and what the purpose of everything is, or what the ultimate origin of the universe (taken in a broad sense to include everything obeying physical laws). Science tries to explain how this world works and how it changes. I can see no connection.
I can at least agree that that is an interesting point.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:21 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Dang, ninja'd. And Medieval Guy deleted his amusing commentary too...

I felt kinda bad that all three of us called him out at once, haha. Once was enough.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:22 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
You prove my point. I've known God for a while, that's why I trust him.

I don't know Deus, so I don't trust him. You don't know God, so you don't trust Him.

You know what old men say about God. In our mortal coil, devoid of heavenly knowledge, no one knows God. We can only claim familiarity after death.
And if the writings of old men are an accurate representation, then I suggested against trusting a God who sets siblings to kill each other.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:22 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
To live in a world without God. This is the ultimate suffering

Errr... no. I am legitimately one of the happiest people I know.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:24 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Your viewpoint is interesting. Just to clarify, you believe in God but not with all the unpleasant strings attached?
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| September 6, 2013, 10:25 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If Heaven is afterlife with God, and if ignorance removes God from personal reality, then God cannot exist.
Personal reality is not the same as reality.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
No one would have ever seen Him, as no one would believe in Him, as no one would have told tales of Him, as no one would have ever seen Him.
People naturally have a desire to find God. Those that go looking see him.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:28 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Your viewpoint is interesting. Just to clarify, you believe in God but not with all the unpleasant strings attached?

Yeah, pretty much. I don't think that the God portrayed by hardcore Bible-munchers is worth it. If God is goodly, he will accept me and earn my eternal reverence. If God is not, he will send me down and prove himself to be petty. If there is no God, I'll have lived a life of happiness without sacrificing anything to false belief.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:31 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You know what old men say about God. In our mortal coil, devoid of heavenly knowledge, no one knows God. We can only claim familiarity after death.
We can get to know God somewhat, but it is true, we don't get familiarity until heaven.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
And if the writings of old men are an accurate representation, then I suggested against trusting a God who sets siblings to kill each other.
God does not set people against each other, but he understands that people will turn on each other because of him.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:32 pm
Quoting Josh B.
...and I'm not entirely sure what the argument is.

This is the "we're antitheists, look how smart we are!" thread.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Galileo

Galileo's problem had nothing to do with his theories, and everything to do with his inability to keep his mouth shut.

He made fun of the pope, IIRC, and everything else progressed from that.

As for the rest, I've heard the opposite. The exact opposite, really.
Quoting Medieval Guy
People do crazy things ... It gets a lot of people killed.

Fixed that for you.
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is a source for an awful lot of bigotry and hatred.

So all those muslims in the middle east who have the same religion and still hate each other are because of...?
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
There is no reason to not believe in God, I think. Think about it this way: If you're right and there is no God, there is no ultimate benefit to you nor to anyone else. You were right, so what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong and there is a God, then he's certainly not someone you want to risk offending. Really, this is a high-risk, low benefit situation. Not believing in God is a lose-lose: you either get punishment or nothing.

Pascal's Wager, eh?

I think you're wrong there.

You either get punishment or punishment.

Obviously I can't speak for Him, but I'm given to understand God doesn't think that much of people who play silly buggers with philosophical games like that.
Quoting Josh B.
I'm still a bit lost as to why punishment is needed if someone does not believe in God.

Because not believing in God is a deliberate rejection, as I understand it.
Quoting Medieval Guy
I certainly don't get that impression when I analyze the things Christians say. Sure, they claim it is free will, but they also claim that God knows everything and that he created each and every one of us. So, logically, he knows what all of us will do. Sounds to me like Christian belief systems and free will do not mix.

Just because He knows what your decision will be doesn't mean it wasn't YOUR decision.


Revanchist's comments are complete waffle, so I'm not even going to bother with them.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:32 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
People naturally have a desire to find God. Those that go looking see him.

I've looked for God my entire life, and all I've found is myself and hope. No man will ever find God and be alive to tell the world, so is the Bible speculation?
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| September 6, 2013, 10:34 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
God does not set people against each other, but he understands that people will turn on each other because of him.

Hitler didn't cause WW2, WW2 was caused because of Hitler. The poor guy.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:35 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If God is goodly, he will accept me and earn my eternal reverence. If God is not, he will send me down and prove himself to be petty.

If Dad is good, he'll let me do whatever I want, whenever I want, without getting angry!

Being punished after being given a set of instructions and deciding to do the exact opposite is not petty.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:37 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
There is no free will with just the laws of physics. Everything is determined by random chance paths of quantum particles. Hitler was just a random event caused by the motion of elections and quarks.
Evil is as OK as flipping a coin. You might get tails, but it's nobodies fault.

Actually, while the existence of humans is probably random, human actions are not. People have the ability to reason.
Reason is just a fancy word for a bunch of random processes in the brain. Really, if there is no spiritual dimension, then our actions are determined solely by the laws of physics. There is no free will.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Perhaps God's plan takes free will into account.
I certainly don't get that impression when I analyze the things Christians say. Sure, they claim it is free will, but they also claim that God knows everything and that he created each and every one of us. So, logically, he knows what all of us will do. Sounds to me like Christian belief systems and free will do not mix.
To be honest, I'm not so sure about free will myself. But, it's such a useful model I've found it really simplifies things. It's sort of like using Newtonian mechanics instead of quantum mechanics to describe a planetary orbit or a ball being launched. The Newtonian model is much, much simpler, but still allows for precise predictions.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible Faith comes before understanding.

And that is why I do not have any, because that is backwards thinking. At least, the way I look at it.
This is because science and religion are different. In science, first comes understanding, then faith. In religion, faith precedes understanding.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:38 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Revanchist's comments are complete waffle, so I'm not even going to bother with them.

That's what they said to Galileo...
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| September 6, 2013, 10:38 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
I felt kinda bad that all three of us called him out at once, haha. Once was enough.

Don't feel bad, I enjoy the attention. ;)
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| September 6, 2013, 10:39 pm
Quoting Areetsa C

So all those muslims in the middle east who have the same religion and still hate each other are because of...?

Different religious sects. Ever heard of Shiites and Sunnis?


BTW, I do appreciate you pointing out logical fallacies on both sides of this debate. Not many people would do that. Way to keep us honest.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:40 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
If Dad is good, he'll let me do whatever I want, whenever I want, without getting angry!

Being punished after being given a set of instructions and deciding to do the exact opposite is not petty.

You honestly believe that the Bible (or some religious text) is an accurate representation of God's will and not man's?
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| September 6, 2013, 10:40 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Errr... no. I am legitimately one of the happiest people I know.
You live in a world with God, even if you don't accept it.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:41 pm
Quoting Areetsa C

Being punished after being given a set of instructions and deciding to do the exact opposite is not petty.

It is if you have no way of knowing which of the dozens of sets of instructions is right. Heck, not even the Christians can agree on what is necessary to go to heaven.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
Just because He knows what your decision will be doesn't mean it wasn't YOUR decision.

Exactly!
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| September 6, 2013, 10:43 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It's like if someone asks to marry you: No matter how much they love or care about you, you still have the option to say no. If you are forced to marry someone you don't like, you'll want a divorce. In the same way, if God brought you to heaven even though you didn't accept him, you'd want to leave.

Aye, but if you say no, no mortal man or woman could ever put you through even a fraction of what is described as eternal suffering. I think sending someone to live forever in pain is pushing it quite a bit merely for denying a 'marriage proposal'. I don't mind if I am not given an existence 'better' than my current on Earth. This is all I have known and may ever know, so thus it is the best and worst existence as of now. If I die and for whatever reason continue to have a functioning 'life' in Heaven, sure I guess that could be great. But I think it's extremely low to condemn a life to an eternity of torture merely because their path brought them somewhere else. I do not wish that upon any human that has or will ever live. Humans are capable of great good as well as great evil. But a lifeform functioning on a higher level than human, a god...even more so. And to use that power to bring such great pain on a life that is helpless against such things is more horrific than anyone here could comprehend and I sincerely hope that if there was something kind enough to introduce us to what we perceive as existence would not do such a thing.

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| September 6, 2013, 10:44 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is if you have no way of knowing which of the dozens of sets of instructions is right. Heck, not even the Christians can agree on what is necessary to go to heaven.

Heehee, I love when I see the big Christians talk about how they've done everything to get to heaven and no one else will, yet they've ignored the little details that Mr. Heysus stated like giving away worldly possessions to those who need them.
"Whaddya mean I can't have a nice house and SUV?!"
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| September 6, 2013, 10:44 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You honestly believe that the Bible (or some religious text) is an accurate representation of God's will and not man's?

No. I do not. I believe, however, that it's authors were motivated by a desire to teach others about God.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:47 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
No. I do not. I believe, however, that it's authors were motivated by a desire to teach others about God.

As am I. What makes you believe them more than me? Neither of us met God, so it follows that the wisdom of millennia has given me greater insight, and thus my teachings are more reliable.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:48 pm
Quoting Michael K.
Exactly!

Except if he knew you would choose the "wrong" path, he made you with full knowledge that he would have to condemn you to eternal pain and suffering. That is not cool.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:55 pm
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurus

Also, The Tyger by William Blake might be worth a look.
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| September 6, 2013, 10:57 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is if you have no way of knowing which of the dozens of sets of instructions is right. Heck, not even the Christians can agree on what is necessary to go to heaven.

Definte "christians".

Catholics, Mormons and Muslims count as heretics, just FYI.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You honestly believe that the Bible (or some religious text) is an accurate representation of God's will and not man's?

Written under His supervision, so yeah.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurus

Lot of cliches in here.

Little thing called 'free will'; if you can't choose between good and evil, you haven't made a choice at all.

Or, if you prefer, someone living in a world where there's no possibility of taking evil choices isn't good; they may be DOING good, but they haven't made a choice to do so.
Quoting Medieval Guy
Different religious sects. Ever heard of Shiites and Sunnis?

Yyeah, that's not enough. There's plenty of Sunnis who'll kill other Sunnis, and the same goes for Shiites. Similarly, over the last thousand years there's been plenty of Catholics who were quite happy to kill other Catholics. And BOTH groups had no problem with banding together with their religious 'enemies' to do it.
Quoting Medieval Guy
BTW, I do appreciate you pointing out logical fallacies on both sides of this debate. Not many people would do that. Way to keep us honest.

Pacal's Wager isn't a logical fallacy, it's a blight. Someone who decides to do a good thing because he'll get something for doing it isn't a good person.
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| September 6, 2013, 11:51 pm
Religion goes like this: My God is bigger and better than your God. We keep him in a little box in the church, and once a week we take him out and sing songs about how big and shiny he is. Then we hear a lecture about this one time our God was big and shiny. Then we feel superior to all those other people who have a smaller, less shiny god.

Jokes aside, I believe in Christ. If you were to pick up one of those red letter editions of the new testament and read only the red text you would have the instructions I try to follow. This is for every day, not just an hour on sunday.
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| September 6, 2013, 11:56 pm
Quoting Medieval Guy
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurus


Also, The Tyger by William Blake might be worth a look.


God is omnipotent; there are many cases where he performed miracles. Jesus has power over death, even. Some people do not trust what the Bible says about that, but through testing, the Bible has come up more reliable than any other historic book.

God worked his power against evil through the twelve disciples, and still works His power through believers today. God can take out the devil; but He loves us so much that he gave us life so we could carry out his will.

That is how I consider it, but I'd like to hear many more opinions to expand my knowledge.
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| September 6, 2013, 11:58 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
As am I. What makes you believe them more than me? Neither of us met God, so it follows that the wisdom of millennia has given me greater insight, and thus my teachings are more reliable.

What makes you think I've never met God?
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| September 6, 2013, 11:59 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Pacal's Wager isn't a logical fallacy, it's a blight. Someone who decides to do a good thing because he'll get something for doing it isn't a good person.

Hadn't thought about that. I try to do good just cause it's good, but you know, I'm not perfect.
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| September 7, 2013, 12:00 am
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You honestly believe that the Bible (or some religious text) is an accurate representation of God's will and not man's?


I believe that firmly, and vehemently. Earlier you said you look for God but found yourself and hope. How did you look for God?
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| September 7, 2013, 12:04 am
Quoting Medieval Guy
It is if you have no way of knowing which of the dozens of sets of instructions is right. Heck, not even the Christians can agree on what is necessary to go to heaven.


The Christians can totally agree on what is necessary to go to heaven. It says so right in the Bible: John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him. . . "I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Born again means a total life turn around so God becomes the center of your life, not worldly possessions. But that's a whole other huge topic.

At least, the Christians around me firmly believe that the way to Heaven is through Jesus, and only Jesus.
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| September 7, 2013, 12:17 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Alex Rode

The Christians can totally agree on what is necessary to go to heaven. It says so right in the Bible: John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him. . . "I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Born again means a total life turn around so God becomes the center of your life, not worldly possessions. But that's a whole other huge topic.

At least, the Christians around me firmly believe that the way to Heaven is through Jesus, and only Jesus.
Exactly true. Thank you.
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| September 7, 2013, 2:07 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Josh B.
I think it's safe to say this is the most ridiculously broad topic so far.
Absolutely, but this was the most requested way to do it.
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| September 7, 2013, 2:09 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
What makes you think I've never met God?

If you'd met him, you'd not be discussing this.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:03 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Written under His supervision, so yeah.

If God is God, then everything is written under His supervision, so everything written by man is God's will. Thus, God is very schizophrenic.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:06 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

I believe that firmly, and vehemently. Earlier you said you look for God but found yourself and hope. How did you look for God?

The only way anyone can look for God - by living and hoping.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:09 pm
Quoting JWG 258
Jokes aside, I believe in Christ. If you were to pick up one of those red letter editions of the new testament and read only the red text you would have the instructions I try to follow. This is for every day, not just an hour on sunday.

Do you? Or do you believe in being a decent human being and religion is an excuse to follow those tenets?
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| September 7, 2013, 3:11 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If God is God, then everything is written under His supervision, so everything written by man is God's will. Thus, God is very schizophrenic.
God gave man a free will, thus man can do things outside God's will.
The Bible is God's inspired word. Even though written down by men It is the word of God. Just like a secretary receiving dictation.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:15 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
The only way anyone can look for God - by living and hoping.
God created the world and the evidence of that surrounds us if we are willing to look for it. God also loves us and wants us all to find him. If you seek Him with your whole heart, you will find him.

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| September 7, 2013, 3:19 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If you'd met him, you'd not be discussing this.
Though most of us won't meet God face to face until judgment day, many have a personal relationship with Him and meet with Him on daily basis.

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| September 7, 2013, 3:22 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Do you? Or do you believe in being a decent human being and religion is an excuse to follow those tenets?
I dare you to read the red letters and try it for yourself.

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| September 7, 2013, 3:24 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God gave man a free will, thus man can do things outside God's will.
The Bible is God's inspired word. Even though written down by men It is the word of God. Just like a secretary receiving dictation.

So you're saying that almost 2000 years ago God came down, told some dude to write the Bible, then left and never came back?
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| September 7, 2013, 3:39 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God created the world and the evidence of that surrounds us if we are willing to look for it. God also loves us and wants us all to find him. If you seek Him with your whole heart, you will find him.

But in doing so your life is forfeit. If life is a test, and to pass it we must waste it, then I am content to fail.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:40 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Though most of us won't meet God face to face until judgment day, many have a personal relationship with Him and meet with Him on daily basis.

What, in prayer? I've prayed before. A lot.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
So you're saying that almost 2000 years ago God came down, told some dude to write the Bible, then left and never came back?
That is incorrect for a number of reasons.
First of all, the Bible written by many people over the course of many years. (That they were able to write about the same ideas without contradiction and though some never read the works of the others is amazing proof that the Bible is a work of God!)
Second, God didn't have to physically talk to these people, He just gave them the words.
Third, God is omnipresent, He never left.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:50 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
But in doing so your life is forfeit. If life is a test, and to pass it we must waste it, then I am content to fail.
How so? To pass the 'test' you make God Lord of your life and get of his perfect game plan, thereby allowing you to the most fulfilling existence possible. Without God your life is wasted but He can restore it.
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| September 7, 2013, 3:54 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
What, in prayer? I've prayed before. A lot.
So you believe God exists then, right? If not why do you pray?
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| September 7, 2013, 4:01 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
That is incorrect for a number of reasons.
First of all, the Bible written by many people over the course of many years. (That they were able to write about the same ideas without contradiction and though some never read the works of the others is amazing proof that the Bible is a work of God!)
Second, God didn't have to physically talk to these people, He just gave them the words.
Third, God is omnipresent, He never left.

So God inspired a bunch of dudes a long time ago, yet over the millennia he's watched the world change and hasn't seen fit to inspire anyone to modify his words? If he's omnipresent, he may well be speaking through any of us - you just don't believe since there's no proof. Faith is only convenient for you if it's already the faith of others, eh?
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| September 7, 2013, 4:28 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
So you believe God exists then, right? If not why do you pray?

Yes.

People have mentioned earlier how you must adhere to the Christian code and put all faith in God and Christ in order to ascend to Heaven. Ignorance or lack of faith will condemn you. Also, God will show you the correct path to follow (hence the Bible was written and all that jazz). However, by that logic, Ancient Egyptians (for example) believed that to reach the paradise in afterlife they must pass several tests and be mummified. They all believed this. If this was false, then would not God have shown them the proper path? Same goes for other civilizations and religions. Therefore, either there are multiple paths to reach God, or there is no God.
With that in mind, I vow to live my life as best I can, without banking on eternal life in paradise. And if there is a God, my path will lead me to him and I will reside in Heaven.
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| September 7, 2013, 4:34 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
So God inspired a bunch of dudes a long time ago, yet over the millennia he's watched the world change and hasn't seen fit to inspire anyone to modify his words? If he's omnipresent, he may well be speaking through any of us - you just don't believe since there's no proof. Faith is only convenient for you if it's already the faith of others, eh?
God in all knowing, why would He give us words that would need to be changed? He speaks through His children all the time, but He has completed Bible, no more needs to be added. If everything God said was recorded in a book, it would be too big to carry, and extremely impractical. God made the Bible so that we could have easy access to His word.
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| September 7, 2013, 4:36 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God in all knowing, why would He give us words that would need to be changed? He speaks through His children all the time, but He has completed Bible, no more needs to be added. If everything God said was recorded in a book, it would be too big to carry, and extremely impractical. God made the Bible so that we could have easy access to His word.

But His word becomes out-dated, and to include some of what would be relevant for modern times in ancient text would be folly, due to lack of comprehension.
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| September 7, 2013, 4:39 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist People have mentioned earlier how you must adhere to the Christian code and put all faith in God and Christ in order to ascend to Heaven. Ignorance or lack of faith will condemn you. Also, God will show you the correct path to follow (hence the Bible was written and all that jazz). However, by that logic, Ancient Egyptians (for example) believed that to reach the paradise in afterlife they must pass several tests and be mummified. They all believed this. If this was false, then would not God have shown them the proper path? Same goes for other civilizations and religions. Therefore, either there are multiple paths to reach God, or there is no God.
With that in mind, I vow to live my life as best I can, without banking on eternal life in paradise. And if there is a God, my path will lead me to him and I will reside in Heaven.
If you accept Christ you will be saved, that's the only requirement. Following Biblical principles naturally comes afterward in respect to God.
As for the ancient civilizations you mentioned and pagan religions of today, God sent them prophets with the message of the truth. He probably gave them many chances but they chose to ignore Him and create their own ideologies. God will not take away anyone's free will, that would be unjust, so if we chose not to follow God's path we're not going to get to God. It happens every day. Consider this, "Direction NOT intention determines destination."
I pray that you will change your mind and seek the one path that leads to eternity. God is here, He's calling to you.
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| September 7, 2013, 4:54 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
But His word becomes out-dated, and to include some of what would be relevant for modern times in ancient text would be folly, due to lack of comprehension.
I haven't encountered anything 'out-dated', unless you call history out-dated. Can you name anything?
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| September 7, 2013, 4:58 pm
I'm surprised no one has pointed out what I see as the big contradiction of the Bible:

According to that highly untrustworthy book:
"God loves everyone!
P.S. Except anyone who doesn't believe, believes in a different god, thinks the wrong things, doesn't do what he wants, or just isn't his sort of person"

It always makes me laugh
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| September 7, 2013, 5:05 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I'm surprised no one has pointed out what I see as the big contradiction of the Bible:

According to that highly untrustworthy book:
"God loves everyone!
P.S. Except anyone who doesn't believe, believes in a different god, thinks the wrong things, doesn't do what he wants, or just isn't his sort of person"

It always makes me laugh

Where did it say that in the Bible? God does love everyone, that's why he disciplines the disobedient.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:13 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Where did it say that in the Bible? God does love everyone, that's why he disciplines the disobedient.

The most common thing I have ever heard said to me by creepy old men, sorry, priests, is that God loves everyone. However, the second most common thing I've heard is that if you do not do absolutely everything that this one god arbitrarily decides you must do, then you go to h#ll. So that means that if God exists, then I (a good person, I would like to think) and going straight to h#ll, as is every Buddhist, Muslim, Sheik, Scientologist (okay, that last one was just thrown in there to make up the numbers). That's a lot of people to punish just because they don't believe the same thing. Seems pretty callous and harsh to me.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:18 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
It always makes me laugh
Think about it. God gave us a free will so that we could love Him and experience His love for us. Our souls are eternal so those who choose to live in separation from God will be separated for eternity. It would be wrong for God to force someone to be with Him who doesn't want to! That would be taking away their free will, which would be completely unjust.
It breaks God's heart when someone rejects Him, so I'm sorry it makes you laugh.

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| September 7, 2013, 5:23 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
That's a lot of people to punish just because they don't believe the same thing. Seems pretty callous and harsh to me.
Read my post above.

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| September 7, 2013, 5:26 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
It always makes me laugh
Think about it. God gave us a free will so that we could love Him and experience His love for us. Our souls are eternal so those who choose to live in separation from God will be separated for eternity. It would be wrong for God to force someone to be with Him who doesn't want to! That would be taking away their free will, which would be completely unjust.
It breaks God's heart when someone rejects Him, so I'm sorry it makes you laugh.

Another argument I've heard a lot of (I got a lot of this when I broke away from the church). It simply highlights the flawed logic. To me, this is what the thought process must have been:
"I'll give 'em all free will, yeah, sounds good. But I'll also then punish them if they don't do what I want. Brilliant!"

Look, if you feel more comfortable believing that humanity exists due to the decision of a supernatural being whose existence cannot be proven, that's okay with me. I respect that, and I'd rather not upset you by arguing my case.

I, on the other hand, have accept the harsh reality that humanity was a freak accident, that we are probably alone in the universe (although I'm writing a novel that contradicts that), and that things such as ethics and morals are merely a creation of our own minds. If you want further information on my opinion, read my long comment on the rise of religion.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:32 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Another argument I've heard a lot of (I got a lot of this when I broke away from the church). It simply highlights the flawed logic. To me, this is what the thought process must have been:
God created us to love Him and be loved by Him. Love is a choice to put someone else above yourself, how then could we love God or experience His love for us without a free will?

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| September 7, 2013, 5:37 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I, on the other hand, have accept the harsh reality that humanity was a freak accident, that we are probably alone in the universe (although I'm writing a novel that contradicts that), and that things such as ethics and morals are merely a creation of our own minds.
It sounds to me like you've thrown out the facts and decided to follow the masses.

(Really cool that you're writing a novel, so am I. Science fiction?)
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| September 7, 2013, 5:39 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
If you accept Christ you will be saved, that's the only requirement. Following Biblical principles naturally comes afterward in respect to God.
As for the ancient civilizations you mentioned and pagan religions of today, God sent them prophets with the message of the truth. He probably gave them many chances but they chose to ignore Him and create their own ideologies. God will not take away anyone's free will, that would be unjust, so if we chose not to follow God's path we're not going to get to God. It happens every day. Consider this, "Direction NOT intention determines destination."
I pray that you will change your mind and seek the one path that leads to eternity. God is here, He's calling to you.

If Christianity is the only path to God, and Christianity is based on Christ, then it's impossible for there to have been prophets advocating the "correct" path to B.C. civilizations.
God calls to me to rectify the fallacies that plague the beliefs of those who stand by their religion as if it is truth.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If Christianity is the only path to God, and Christianity is based on Christ, then it's impossible for there to have been prophets advocating the "correct" path to B.C. civilizations.
Christianity is about God, Who has been around forever. If you would read the Old Testament you would see exactly how it worked before God sent His Son.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:44 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Another argument I've heard a lot of (I got a lot of this when I broke away from the church). It simply highlights the flawed logic. To me, this is what the thought process must have been:
God created us to love Him and be loved by Him. Love is a choice to put someone else above yourself, how then could we love God or experience His love for us without a free will?

Okay, look, I can't win this argument, becasue I can't change you mind about something you believe in as strongly as you do.

But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.

If, on the other hand, we evolved from apes, or another species, then it makes more sense that we band together in tribes we call countries, fight other tribes called countries, and generally are horrible creatures. No, I'm not a pessimist, before you ask. I'm just not socially conditioned
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| September 7, 2013, 5:46 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Another argument I've heard a lot of (I got a lot of this when I broke away from the church). It simply highlights the flawed logic. To me, this is what the thought process must have been:
God created us to love Him and be loved by Him. Love is a choice to put someone else above yourself, how then could we love God or experience His love for us without a free will?

My reply to this went into moderation
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| September 7, 2013, 5:51 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If Christianity is the only path to God, and Christianity is based on Christ, then it's impossible for there to have been prophets advocating the "correct" path to B.C. civilizations.
God calls to me to rectify the fallacies that plague the beliefs of those who stand by their religion as if it is truth.


To reach God, you gotta humble yourself. I've had to swallow my pride and face the fact that God is bigger than my mind. If you do not stand in Christianity, where do you stand, anyway?
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| September 7, 2013, 5:51 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I, on the other hand, have accept the harsh reality that humanity was a freak accident, that we are probably alone in the universe (although I'm writing a novel that contradicts that), and that things such as ethics and morals are merely a creation of our own minds.
It sounds to me like you've thrown out the facts and decided to follow the masses.

(Really cool that you're writing a novel, so am I. Science fiction?)

The masses? The masses are the religious

(Yup, Sci-Fi. Only 75 pages so far, need a further 225ish)
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| September 7, 2013, 5:52 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, look, I can't win this argument, becasue I can't change you mind about something you believe in as strongly as you do.

But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.

If, on the other hand, we evolved from apes, or another species, then it makes more sense that we band together in tribes we call countries, fight other tribes called countries, and generally are horrible creatures. No, I'm not a pessimist, before you ask. I'm just not socially conditioned


There is a lot of scientific data against evolution. A lot. I will not refer to it now, though, as many know the truth but do not see it as such. The world was perfect: God and man in perfect harmony in the beginning, but then sin came in and messed it all up. God didn't mean for life to be like this; with sin, troubles and pain. The devil meant it to be like that, because from the beginning, the devil has wanted to be greater than God.

This can not happen; it is completely impossible for us beings to be greater than our creator. But that's a whole different topic.
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| September 7, 2013, 5:55 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.

If, on the other hand, we evolved from apes, or another species, then it makes more sense that we band together in tribes we call countries, fight other tribes called countries, and generally are horrible creatures. No, I'm not a pessimist, before you ask. I'm just not socially conditioned
Name one place where God messed up on our programming, just one.

There's a problem with the evolving from apes thing, it's impossible. New information is never created, only modified or lost so how could a lesser organism evolve into anything more advanced?
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| September 7, 2013, 5:56 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, look, I can't win this argument, becasue I can't change you mind about something you believe in as strongly as you do.

But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.

If, on the other hand, we evolved from apes, or another species, then it makes more sense that we band together in tribes we call countries, fight other tribes called countries, and generally are horrible creatures. No, I'm not a pessimist, before you ask. I'm just not socially conditioned


All the flaws you see in humanity presently are not because God is an incompetent designer; it is because sin crept into this world.

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| September 7, 2013, 5:59 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .

That's changing, as Revelations said.

(Very cool, don't get discouraged, it's a long hard task. I know, I have about 350 pages)
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| September 7, 2013, 6:00 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
That's changing, as Revelations said.

(Very cool, don't get discouraged, it's a long hard task. I know, I have about 350 pages)

(Sounds like you and I would get along well if not for this)
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| September 7, 2013, 6:05 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, look, I can't win this argument, becasue I can't change you mind about something you believe in as strongly as you do.

But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.

If, on the other hand, we evolved from apes, or another species, then it makes more sense that we band together in tribes we call countries, fight other tribes called countries, and generally are horrible creatures. No, I'm not a pessimist, before you ask. I'm just not socially conditioned


Aside from God, there are no current examples of evolution taking place today. People aren't evolving; in fact, if you look at the relative behavior of humanity, one might venture to say that we are down-grading.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:06 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

All the flaws you see in humanity presently are not because God is an incompetent designer; it is because sin crept into this world.

If God was competent, that wouldn't have happened. I can keep going like this all day.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:08 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
(Sounds like you and I would get along well if not for this)
(I'm sure we would, but this is a debate club. We could talk SiFi in the general conversation.)

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| September 7, 2013, 6:09 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
If God was competent, that wouldn't have happened. I can keep going like this all day.
Why wouldn't it have happened? I already explained why we must have a free will.

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| September 7, 2013, 6:10 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
If God was competent, that wouldn't have happened. I can keep going like this all day.


The devil used to be an angel in God's army. He then could not keep his pride down; he wanted to become greater than God. That is not possible. He was thrown away, and became the devil. To this day he has tried to over throw God. He attempted that in the garden of Eden, when not God's designing flaws where shown, but the weakness of man.

The fault is not God's; it was humanity who fell to temptation, and fell to sin.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:11 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

To reach God, you gotta humble yourself. I've had to swallow my pride and face the fact that God is bigger than my mind. If you do not stand in Christianity, where do you stand, anyway?

I stand for what is just.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:11 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I stand for what is just.


Do you not consider God just?
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| September 7, 2013, 6:12 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I stand for what is just.
God is just.

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| September 7, 2013, 6:12 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I stand for what is just.
God is just.

No, no he his not. And that's my big issue.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:14 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
No, no he his not. And that's my big issue.


In which ways is He not just?
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| September 7, 2013, 6:14 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
No, no he his not. And that's my big issue.
You haven't given a reason why. God has made Himself available to us, and gave us a choose of where we want spend eternity, that more than just
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:16 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

The devil used to be an angel in God's army. He then could not keep his pride down; he wanted to become greater than God. That is not possible. He was thrown away, and became the devil. To this day he has tried to over throw God. He attempted that in the garden of Eden, when not God's designing flaws where shown, but the weakness of man.

The fault is not God's; it was humanity who fell to temptation, and fell to sin.

First:
Why did god need an army?
Second:
I know that story
Third:
You missed the other part of my poor design comment. Take a look at the human body. We have on brain, one heart, one liver, on stomach. If any ONE of those components fail, we're dead. It is ridiculously hard to operate on or repair key parts of the body becasue of the poor design. We cannot have been created by an intelligent being.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:17 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Aside from God, there are no current examples of evolution taking place today. People aren't evolving; in fact, if you look at the relative behavior of humanity, one might venture to say that we are down-grading.

Really? I can think of one example without even doing any research.

Cod is (was) one of our principal food fishes. In order to avoid catching cod which were juvenile, fishing nets were made large enough to let small fish through the gaps. Thus, large cod were caught while small ones survived. The over-fishing of cod meant that the population of large individuals was decimated, and only the runts mated. Thus, the gene pool of the species became dominated by those of the runts, and now the average length of an adult cod has diminished from before fisheries came along. That is evolution - the adaptation of a species, especially in order to cope and survive in a changed environment.

Evolution usually takes thousands or millions of years for there to be noticeable effect, but we've turbocharged cod's evolution and thus proved that it is not witchcraft and lies.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:17 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
No, no he his not. And that's my big issue.
You haven't given a reason why. God has made Himself available to us, and gave us a choose of where we want spend eternity, that more than just


Exactly. You are so right.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:18 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Do you not consider God just?

Quoting The Object of Legend
God is just.

As he is portrayed in the Bible and as you describe him - no. I think he is greater than you believe.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:19 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

In which ways is He not just?

See my response to the Object of Legend, which has gone into moderation
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:21 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
You missed the other part of my poor design comment. Take a look at the human body. We have on brain, one heart, one liver, on stomach. If any ONE of those components fail, we're dead. It is ridiculously hard to operate on or repair key parts of the body becasue of the poor design. We cannot have been created by an intelligent being.
Before the Fall we didn't have any of those problems, we didn't die. We were created perfect and then we ruined it when we sinned against God. That was our choice.
When Christ comes again our bodies will be restored.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:22 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
As he is portrayed in the Bible and as you describe him - no. I think he is greater than you believe.
How could He be greater? Tell me about it.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:23 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Really? I can think of one example without even doing any research.

Cod is (was) one of our principal food fishes. In order to avoid catching cod which were juvenile, fishing nets were made large enough to let small fish through the gaps. Thus, large cod were caught while small ones survived. The over-fishing of cod meant that the population of large individuals was decimated, and only the runts mated. Thus, the gene pool of the species became dominated by those of the runts, and now the average length of an adult cod has diminished from before fisheries came along. That is evolution - the adaptation of a species, especially in order to cope and survive in a changed environment.

Evolution usually takes thousands or millions of years for there to be noticeable effect, but we've turbocharged cod's evolution and thus proved that it is not witchcraft and lies.


Cod . . . ah, cod. Wonderful.

On the topic of millions of years . . . there is much scientific data against an old earth. Cases of oil pressure, the size of the sun, even, helium in the atmosphere, and those are just some that I have learned about.


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| September 7, 2013, 6:25 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
How could He be greater? Tell me about it.

Instead of condemning those who live in ignorance of him or fail to follow the specific codes of Christianity, he welcomes all beings of good heart and permits redemption after death. He heals and helps, and did not create the catastrophes and such from the Bible.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:27 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
First:
Why did god need an army?
Second:
I know that story
Third:
You missed the other part of my poor design comment. Take a look at the human body. We have on brain, one heart, one liver, on stomach. If any ONE of those components fail, we're dead. It is ridiculously hard to operate on or repair key parts of the body becasue of the poor design. We cannot have been created by an intelligent being.


Why do Christians get sick? Not because God wants them to. Christians get injured, sick, etc, because the Devil knows we have Jesus in us, and he doesn't like that. He knows he can't get rid of Jesus, so he tries to get rid of us. But on your topic of near defenseless internal systems. . . You see, according to the Bible, there wouldn't be any sickness or pain in the Garden. Then sin came along, like I've said before. Man fell to temptation, which allowed pain and suffering into the world. It was not God's plan for us to suffer. No way.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:28 pm
Btw, this is a great debate. I love this type of thing.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:34 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Instead of condemning those who live in ignorance of him or fail to follow the specific codes of Christianity, he welcomes all beings of good heart and permits redemption after death. He heals and helps, and did not create the catastrophes and such from the Bible.
God lets no one be separated from Him without have a chance to accept the truth, nor does He required any particular action to receive the gift, those come later. God is also perfect and everything He does is thus perfect, even the catastrophes mentioned in the Bible. God is greater than us, we cannot fully wrap our minds around Him. Best of all He is personal and wants to have a relationship with each of us.
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| September 7, 2013, 6:36 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Do you? Or do you believe in being a decent human being and religion is an excuse to follow those tenets?


Yes I believe in Christ. Because I believe, I attempt to do that which I believe and follow the instructions of whom I believe in.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:37 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Really? I can think of one example without even doing any research.

Cod is (was) one of our principal food fishes. In order to avoid catching cod which were juvenile, fishing nets were made large enough to let small fish through the gaps. Thus, large cod were caught while small ones survived. The over-fishing of cod meant that the population of large individuals was decimated, and only the runts mated. Thus, the gene pool of the species became dominated by those of the runts, and now the average length of an adult cod has diminished from before fisheries came along. That is evolution - the adaptation of a species, especially in order to cope and survive in a changed environment.

Evolution usually takes thousands or millions of years for there to be noticeable effect, but we've turbocharged cod's evolution and thus proved that it is not witchcraft and lies.

Interesting case-point.

Evolution happens and has happened. Darwin's theory is supported by so much evidence that it should be fact. The only thing holding it back is religion.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:37 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Instead of condemning those who live in ignorance of him or fail to follow the specific codes of Christianity, he welcomes all beings of good heart and permits redemption after death. He heals and helps, and did not create the catastrophes and such from the Bible.
God lets no one be separated from Him without have a chance to accept the truth, nor does He required any particular action to receive the gift, those come later. God is also perfect and everything He does is thus perfect, even the catastrophes mentioned in the Bible. God is greater than us, we cannot fully wrap our minds around Him. Best of all He is personal and wants to have a relationship with each of us.


Exactly. He totally created the storms. One point that is stressed in the Bible is that we should fear God. Not a cowering scared, but a healthy respect. God is powerful.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:38 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Alex Rode
Btw, this is a great debate. I love this type of thing.
Yeah, it just got really good! It's nice to meet you by the way.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:38 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
You missed the other part of my poor design comment. Take a look at the human body. We have on brain, one heart, one liver, on stomach. If any ONE of those components fail, we're dead. It is ridiculously hard to operate on or repair key parts of the body becasue of the poor design. We cannot have been created by an intelligent being.
Before the Fall we didn't have any of those problems, we didn't die. We were created perfect and then we ruined it when we sinned against God. That was our choice.
When Christ comes again our bodies will be restored.

Don't get me started on Jesus.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:38 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Evolution happens and has happened. Darwin's theory is supported by so much evidence that it should be fact. The only thing holding it back is religion.
The fossil record denies it completely, and even shows that humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time. Where is this evidence? Darwin said that unless transitional fossils were found in abundance, his theory was false.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Don't get me started on Jesus.
He's God, we have been talking about God, so aren't you already started?
(I see you can't deny what I said)

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:43 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Don't get me started on Jesus.


(hey Reap, I'm here if you want to chat in Roleplay)
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:46 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Evolution happens and has happened. Darwin's theory is supported by so much evidence that it should be fact. The only thing holding it back is religion.
The fossil record denies it completely, and even shows that humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time. Where is this evidence? Darwin said that unless transitional fossils were found in abundance, his theory was false.

Look, I'll come back to this later, I have real work to do. Not conceding defeat though!
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:48 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Don't get me started on Jesus.
He's God, we have been talking about God, so aren't you already started?
(I see you can't deny what I said)


Yeah, He's God! You know, the trinity, three-in-one. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:49 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Look, I'll come back to this later, I have real work to do. Not conceding defeat though!
Sure.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:50 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Look, I'll come back to this later, I have real work to do. Not conceding defeat though!


Yeah, no problem man! I am about to have supper, so I will be back. Sick debate, you are a more than worthy opponent. But the Truth of God is un-defeatable.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:50 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Look, I'll come back to this later, I have real work to do. Not conceding defeat though!
Sure.

Object of Legend, great to meet you. We share the same belief in the overwhelming Truth of God. We're soldiers. Let's not give up!

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:51 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Alex Rode

Yeah, He's God! You know, the trinity, three-in-one. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Looks like we won the day! Thanks for the support!

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:51 pm
Actually, the soonest I'll be back is in over a day, as I am busy tomorrow. But when I come back, I'll start where I left off.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:52 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, look, I can't win this argument, becasue I can't change you mind about something you believe in as strongly as you do.

But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy.
Could you make humans from scratch? No designer but God has ever designed anything as complex and so well working as life. Why are life forms not all made perfect? This is part of God's amazing creation. By making them imperfect, He makes evolution possible. Why is evolution necessary? Because environments change. The Earth is a place of change, so God's prime creation, life, has a built in mechanism to survive the change. This makes the creation look imperfect if you take a snapshot at any given time.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:52 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Alex Rode
Object of Legend, great to meet you. We share the same belief in the overwhelming Truth of God. We're soldiers. Let's not give up!
I'm going to add you as a favorite builder.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:52 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Alex Rode

Yeah, He's God! You know, the trinity, three-in-one. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Looks like we won the day! Thanks for the support!

Oh, and thank you! I only wish we had another two guys or so fighting for the cause!

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:52 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Alex Rode

Yeah, He's God! You know, the trinity, three-in-one. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Looks like we won the day! Thanks for the support!

Hey, they'll be back, we didn't win anything yet.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:53 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God lets no one be separated from Him without have a chance to accept the truth, nor does He required any particular action to receive the gift, those come later. God is also perfect and everything He does is thus perfect, even the catastrophes mentioned in the Bible. God is greater than us, we cannot fully wrap our minds around Him. Best of all He is personal and wants to have a relationship with each of us.

Yeah, I'm cool with that God. ;)
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:59 pm
Quoting JWG 258

Yes I believe in Christ. Because I believe, I attempt to do that which I believe and follow the instructions of whom I believe in.

And I respect that.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 6:59 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
(Sounds like you and I would get along well if not for this)

(You still can. If you refuse to get along with someone just because you have different views, then I pity you.)
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:00 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
Object of Legend, great to meet you. We share the same belief in the overwhelming Truth of God. We're soldiers. Let's not give up!

I hope you guys can accept me on your team even though I believe in evolution.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:08 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I hope you guys can accept me on your team even though I believe in evolution.


I will say this. You're welcome on our team, but us two who are originally on it vehemently disagree. Evolution does not exist, and that is what our team believes. If you are fighting for evolution's cause, please do not be on our team. If you are fighting for the Truth of God, welcome!
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:10 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
The fossil record denies it completely, and even shows that humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time. Where is this evidence? Darwin said that unless transitional fossils were found in abundance, his theory was false.

Sorry, what? When has any fossil record ever suggested that?
Also, in respect to human evolution, all fossils are transitional. Due to the constant evolution of the race, it is very difficult for experts to classify many remains. There are dozens of minor stages to our evolution, and each one is classified through a range of attributes. Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus are easy to look at as completely different species in passing. However, not all fossilized remains fall into their gamut of attributes nicely, and are in fact stages of human evolution which are not given their own name in order to avoid thousands of classifications. Hence, a man who is called Homo Habilis by us may in fact be vastly different from a former Homo Habilis, if they were from different time periods. Not to say that every fossil of a humanoid we find is part of our evolution. Homo Neanderthalensis is widely believed to be a separate race, rendered extinct through our ancestors' (Homo Cro-Magnon) better hunting abilities. That said, Homo Neanderthalensis was still much like our brothers, as they evolved from the same stock. Evolution can take many turns depending on the environment, and it is impossible to make clear-cut distinctions between races as they evolve, hence "transitional" fossils are not exactly a real concept.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:11 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Yeah, He's God! You know, the trinity, three-in-one. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Plus, the Holy Spirit impregnates unwitting women. Not a big fan of him.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:12 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Plus, the Holy Spirit impregnates unwitting women. Not a big fan of him.


Okay, I'll say this. People can reject God all their lives. That is their choice. That is the thing that decides our eternal future: the choices we make in life.

On the day of judgement, whether you believe it will come or not, our choices will decide whether we go to eternal paradise or eternal suffering.

I don't love God because if I don't, maybe I won't go to Heaven. I fight for the Truth because I know it is right, and just, and simply good.

We always have a choice, and many of our choices have an eternal effect.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:18 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Okay, I'll say this. People can reject God all their lives. That is their choice. That is the thing that decides our eternal future: the choices we make in life.

On the day of judgement, whether you believe it will come or not, our choices will decide whether we go to eternal paradise or eternal suffering.

I don't love God because if I don't, maybe I won't go to Heaven. I fight for the Truth because I know it is right, and just, and simply good.

We always have a choice, and many of our choices have an eternal effect.

I welcome God, I reject Christianity's version of God. If it was true that Christianity is the correct path and that God has sent messengers with the word of Christianity to every civilization, then it seems far-fetched that it only developed in the Middle-East and then spread. You'd think at least one other region would view the truth of the messenger and not create a false religion, wouldn't you? Hence, if there is a God, he welcomes all religions. Including my personal interpretation.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:23 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I welcome God, I reject Christianity's version of God. If it was true that Christianity is the correct path and that God has sent messengers with the word of Christianity to every civilization, then it seems far-fetched that it only developed in the Middle-East and then spread. You'd think at least one other region would view the truth of the messenger and not create a false religion, wouldn't you? Hence, if there is a God, he welcomes all religions. Including my personal interpretation.

That explains a lot. You love God, but you don't like what us Christians have "made" God.

I must say this: When you said something about if Christianity was the right path, and messengers with the Word of Christianity.

The Christians that told you this, or the Christians that you heard this from, are disillusioned.

Christianity is not so much a path, but a religion that is simple; love God. God becomes your path in Christianity, not the religion.

Then the word of Christianity? Well, the Christians from which you hear this from are odd.

I should hope that Christian's goals are to not carry out the word of Christians themselves, because that is self-centered.

I try to carry out the word of God.

From what I've said, I believe that Christianity should be focused on God.

I hope that anything I say that is not of God and true to his Word will be discarded. I pray for that.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:31 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
That explains a lot. You love God, but you don't like what us Christians have "made" God.

I must say this: When you said something about if Christianity was the right path, and messengers with the Word of Christianity.

The Christians that told you this, or the Christians that you heard this from, are disillusioned.

Christianity is not so much a path, but a religion that is simple; love God. God becomes your path in Christianity, not the religion.

Then the word of Christianity? Well, the Christians from which you hear this from are odd.

I should hope that Christian's goals are to not carry out the word of Christians themselves, because that is self-centered.

I try to carry out the word of God.

From what I've said, I believe that Christianity should be focused on God.

I hope that anything I say that is not of God and true to his Word will be discarded. I pray for that.

Hey, it looks like we're on the same page! (Minus your evolution views.)
When people quit using Bible references and Christian mumbo-jumbo, and just say how they feel about their life and their religion, things start to make a lot of sense.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:34 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Hey, it looks like we're on the same page! (Minus your evolution views.)
When people quit using Bible references and Christian mumbo-jumbo, and just say how they feel about their life and their religion, things start to make a lot of sense.


I agree with what you just said, partly. I think it's beneficial to talk about how you fell about your life and religion, but disagree with what you said about Bible references.

I like the Bible. Favorite book, bar none.

I think Christians should reference it totally.

Man, I'm tired. I gotta call it a day. Supper's ready, anyway. Good day of debating. God bless.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:37 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
Man, I'm tired. I gotta call it a day. Supper's ready, anyway. Good day of debating. God bless.

See you around. I hope someone gets back to reply to my comments on human evolution above...
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:39 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

I will say this. You're welcome on our team, but us two who are originally on it vehemently disagree. Evolution does not exist, and that is what our team believes. If you are fighting for evolution's cause, please do not be on our team. If you are fighting for the Truth of God, welcome!
I'm glad you don't reject me. I think that the God is much more important than opinions on any scientific theory. I think that whether evolution is true or not is absolutely irrelevant to whether God is true.

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:41 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
See you around. I hope someone gets back to reply to my comments on human evolution above...

Evolution is a different debate.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:43 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Evolution is a different debate.

But this relates to people's perception of the veracity of God.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 7:52 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Sorry, what? When has any fossil record ever suggested that?
Also, in respect to human evolution, all fossils are transitional. Due to the constant evolution of the race, it is very difficult for experts to classify many remains. There are dozens of minor stages to our evolution, and each one is classified through a range of attributes. Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus are easy to look at as completely different species in passing. However, not all fossilized remains fall into their gamut of attributes nicely, and are in fact stages of human evolution which are not given their own name in order to avoid thousands of classifications. Hence, a man who is called Homo Habilis by us may in fact be vastly different from a former Homo Habilis, if they were from different time periods. Not to say that every fossil of a humanoid we find is part of our evolution. Homo Neanderthalensis is widely believed to be a separate race, rendered extinct through our ancestors' (Homo Cro-Magnon) better hunting abilities. That said, Homo Neanderthalensis was still much like our brothers, as they evolved from the same stock. Evolution can take many turns depending on the environment, and it is impossible to make clear-cut distinctions between races as they evolve, hence "transitional" fossils are not exactly a real concept.


Hey Luke,

I would really like to take you up on this subject, but I won't have time until Mon. evening. Fine with you?
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 8:23 pm
Quoting Mark McPeek

Hey Luke,

I would really like to take you up on this subject, but I won't have time until Mon. evening. Fine with you?


Hey Mark, great to see you here. Can't wait till Monday evening!

Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 8:33 pm
Confirming omnipotence is by definition denying all statements. Even omnipotence's own qualifiers.

Say there is an omnipotent god. Say he is completely evil. He lies to people and designs their brain to be unable of comprehending him. Makes you do all sort of stuff to go to paradise, then annihilates you or something.
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 8:35 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Hey Mark, great to see you here. Can't wait till Monday evening!

Likewise! :D
Permalink
| September 7, 2013, 10:30 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
What, in prayer? I've prayed before. A lot.
So you believe God exists then, right? If not why do you pray?

Some people confuse the Creator and the Creation, believing that the universe is God and God is the universe.

It's an irritatingly popular heresy.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I'm surprised no one has pointed out what I see as the big contradiction of the Bible:

According to that highly untrustworthy book:
"God loves everyone!
P.S. Except anyone who doesn't believe, believes in a different god, thinks the wrong things, doesn't do what he wants, or just isn't his sort of person"

It always makes me laugh

Parents love their children, doesn't stop them from spanking them when they go astray.


Sodom, a city full of cheerfully unrepentant sinners:

Abraham: “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

God: “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

In short, He'd let an entire city filled with merry heathens carry on being rape-ey and greedy and arrogant and generally taking relatively small sins to new heights of accomplishment to preserve the lives of ten righteous people.

Of course, saying that there WEREN'T ten righteous people in the place is spoilering something everyone in the world already knows.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
"I'll give 'em all free will, yeah, sounds good. But I'll also then punish them if they don't do what I want. Brilliant!"

No-one's holding a gun to your head to keep you from murdering, but if you choose to commit murder you can bet you'll be in trouble.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
If Christianity is the only path to God, and Christianity is based on Christ, then it's impossible for there to have been prophets advocating the "correct" path to B.C. civilizations.

Christ was sent because people can't achieve perfection by following laws.
You look at someone's breasts and think "yeah, those're nice", you're committing a sin. Not an especially large sin, but that's the thing; in comparison to perfection, the smallest failing is unacceptable.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
...But I'll say this:
If god exists, if he created humanity, then he was the most incompetent designer I have ever heard of. Not only did he mess up the programming, he left out key failsafe measures in the hardware too, to use a computer analogy...

People used to live for centuries, if not millenia. That they can still live at all after thousands of years of degenerative mutations is a testament to the quality of the design.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Why did god need an army?

You can thank the Catholics for that one. An army of servants would be a better description; pretty much all the times angels show up, it's to pass on a message or poke something.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
You missed the other part of my poor design comment. Take a look at the human body. We have on brain, one heart, one liver, on stomach. If any ONE of those components fail, we're dead. It is ridiculously hard to operate on or repair key parts of the body becasue of the poor design. We cannot have been created by an intelligent being.

Operative term: 'fail'. Or if you prefer: 'not function as designed'.

You can thank your great great etcetera ancestors for that; until they decided listening to the guy who says "eat this thing you were told not to touch and you'll become gods!" was a good idea, for an organ to fail was simply impossible.

Unless you think a machine that could stop working at any moment can be described as "very good"..
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
cod

Except that that's not evolution; the big cod had the genes for both large size and small. The big ones all got killed, leaving only the survivors who had lost the genes for large size.

Information has been lost; the survivors are better suited to live in the altered environment, but are less able in the original setting.

If anything, it's DEvolution.
Quoting The Object of Legend
Looks like we won the day! Thanks for the support!

It doesn't work like that.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Confirming omnipotence is by definition denying all statements. Even omnipotence's own qualifiers.

Not necessarily.

Can God create a rock so large that He cannot lift it?

Yes.

Can God then lift it?

Also yes.

Of course, it's a spurious argument to begin with.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 1:17 am
Quoting Areetsa C
If anything, it's DEvolution.
Devolution is just evolution with decreasing complexity. Just like deceleration is negative acceleration. It's still evolution.
Not that it's important, just thought I'd point that out.

Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 1:44 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Devolution is just evolution with decreasing complexity. Just like deceleration is negative acceleration. It's still evolution.
Not that it's important, just thought I'd point that out.

"Evolution" is random mutations that magically create new and more effective genes.
"Devolution" is random mutations that result in LESS genes and less effectiveness.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 2:11 am
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Plus, the Holy Spirit impregnates unwitting women. Not a big fan of him.
No He does not. Where did you get that crazy idea.

Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:19 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It's still evolution.
It is the antonym of evolution. That's like say 'Fast is still slow'.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:21 am
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Yeah, I'm cool with that God. ;)
That's the God of the Bible. You might want to check Him out, read His Word.

Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:24 am
I'm Catholic, and I personally have no problem with people of other religions or atheists. I'm not a super-ultra-religious person, but I like to consider myself fairly religious, I go to mass, volunteer at my church, the basics.The only time I have a problem with someone of another religion or an atheist is when they either in my face about it or when they are uninformed and make assumptions.
An example of the first would be someone I knew who was an atheist. In the seventh grade, we were on the bus to a field trip. He asked if I could go over his house that weekend, and I casually said I couldn't since I had to help at my church's CCD. He launched into a 45minute roast of my religion. To be clear, I've met atheists who are perfectly reasonable and nice people, this guy is just one.
An example of the second were a ground of kids in the fifth grade. They knew I was Catholic and one day decided to show me "the error of my ways". They told me what the knew, things like "you guys say that anyone not catholic can't go to heaven", "you hate all atheists and jews", and "all your priests are molesters". I was offended, everything they said was wrong, when I tried to inform them of the reality, they just ignored it.
Most of the time though, I don't care what religion you are, as long as you don't make it an issue, I'm okay with it
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 9:47 am
Quoting Areetsa C
"Evolution" is random mutations that magically create new and more effective genes.
"Devolution" is random mutations that result in LESS genes and less effectiveness.

Quoting The Object of Legend
It is the antonym of evolution. That's like say 'Fast is still slow'.

Evolution is just a change in the gene pool of a population. Devolution specifically refers to the type of evolution with decreasing complexity. It's the same kind of thing as the fact that deceleration is a special form of acceleration.
It's really just a technicality. But you shouldn't use terminology wrong.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 10:50 am
Quoting A bunch of Christians

It seems that your key argument and rebuttal is that "God is great, and before there was sin, we were great too".
That's not an argument.
I'm going to give you the history of most religions, again:
Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line

Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin, humans had no understanding of how they came to be, and no real incentive for obeying laws.

So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"

Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.

Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomenae of the universe.

Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.

And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

Have fun
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 3:21 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Quoting A bunch of Christians

It seems that your key argument and rebuttal is that "God is great, and before there was sin, we were great too".
That's not an argument.
I'm going to give you the history of most religions, again:
Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line

Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin, humans had no understanding of how they came to be, and no real incentive for obeying laws.

So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"

Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.

Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomenae of the universe.

Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.

And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

Have fun

You said this exact same thing before. Twice.
http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1229279
http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1229274
I already responded to this, so I'm not going to again:
http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1229326
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 4:28 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .

No need to repeat, word for word, the same argument you made before. It's still just as invalid.
You make religion sound like a conspiracy to delude people and bring money to those who started it.
Unfortunately, conspiracy theories are difficult to debunk, no matter how ridiculous they are.
Do you really think Jesus and his disciples made up a crazy story for personal gain, and then were willing to be tortured to death to defend their lie?
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 4:34 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
No need to repeat, word for word, the same argument you made before. It's still just as invalid.
You make religion sound like a conspiracy to delude people and bring money to those who started it.
Unfortunately, conspiracy theories are difficult to debunk, no matter how ridiculous they are.
Do you really think Jesus and his disciples made up a crazy story for personal gain, and then were willing to be tortured to death to defend their lie?


Dude, totally strong point; would Jesus and his disciples and his followers go through that much pain, torture, and humiliation if they knew it was false? Christianity is the longest lasting religion, and has withstood major drawbacks, many, many, many times.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 5:02 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Quoting A bunch of Christians

It seems that your key argument and rebuttal is that "God is great, and before there was sin, we were great too".
That's not an argument.
I'm going to give you the history of most religions, again:
Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line
So that you won't make things up about Christianity, I will give you a brief synopsis of what it is all about.
God created us to love and to love Him. Because love is a choice it cannot exist without the ability to choose, thus He gave us a free will and placed the first humans in the safest environment possible. In order that we would have a free will it was necessary to provide a way to choose right or wrong, that being a single tree among thousands and thousands. Everything was perfectly set, humans would live in His presence and develop without worry, except the first humans did the one and only thing they were told not to.
Because God is holy, committing sin separated us from His presence and made us susceptible to death. People forgot God entirely except one family that never gave up telling the others about the truth, which was that God wanted to reconcile them. God had to destroy everyone that had turned away before they could train up another generation in sin, but He saved the good family to repopulate the world.
Some followed God others turned their backs to Him, but He gave them a temporary means to be forgiven of their sins until He sent His Son to live without sin in order to defeat sin. Now, all we have to do go to Him, and we will be reconciled.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 5:41 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Alex Rode

Dude, totally strong point; would Jesus and his disciples and his followers go through that much pain, torture, and humiliation if they knew it was false? Christianity is the longest lasting religion, and has withstood major drawbacks, many, many, many times.
People NEVER die for something they KNOW is a lie. Jesus and the disciples would have known, so it must be true.

Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 5:43 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Quoting A bunch of Christians

It seems that your key argument and rebuttal is that "God is great, and before there was sin, we were great too".
That's not an argument.
I'm going to give you the history of most religions, again:
Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line
So that you won't make things up about Christianity, I will give you a brief synopsis of what it is all about.
God created us to love and to love Him. Because love is a choice it cannot exist without the ability to choose, thus He gave us a free will and placed the first humans in the safest environment possible. In order that we would have a free will it was necessary to provide a way to choose right or wrong, that being a single tree among thousands and thousands. Everything was perfectly set, humans would live in His presence and develop without worry, except the first humans did the one and only thing they were told not to.
Because God is holy, committing sin separated us from His presence and made us susceptible to death. People forgot God entirely except one family that never gave up telling the others about the truth, which was that God wanted to reconcile them. God had to destroy everyone that had turned away before they could train up another generation in sin, but He saved the good family to repopulate the world.
Some followed God others turned their backs to Him, but He gave them a temporary means to be forgiven of their sins until He sent His Son to live without sin in order to defeat sin. Now, all we have to do go to Him, and we will be reconciled.

Yeah... But why did your god make love to be a choice? If he created everything, he created love and all its characteristics, no?

Also, what if there is another god who made up yours and brainwashed "that family" to spread what would in this case be a lie?
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 5:52 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Alex Rode

Dude, totally strong point; would Jesus and his disciples and his followers go through that much pain, torture, and humiliation if they knew it was false? Christianity is the longest lasting religion, and has withstood major drawbacks, many, many, many times.
People NEVER die for something they KNOW is a lie. Jesus and the disciples would have known, so it must be true.

Exactly.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 5:55 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Yeah... But why did your god make love to be a choice? If he created everything, he created love and all its characteristics, no?

Also, what if there is another god who made up yours and brainwashed "that family" to spread what would in this case be a lie?


Okay, yes, God created everything, emotions, physical beings, and more.

We as Christians don't focus on "what ifs". This is what we KNOW to be a fact: God is the one True God. There are simply no other Gods before him. Christian families have heard directly from God, and seen Him work, so his existence and presence exists, and we have no doubt of that.

So, as Christians knowing that, the other "god" you mentioned about "brainwashing" us is simply doesn't exist.

We believe in God's Truth because we want to, not because some god brainwashed us too.

If there is a "god" to influence us for the worse, it's the devil. (who is not a god.)

He sends temptation our way, and it is our job to withstand it through the power of God.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 6:00 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

Okay, yes, God created everything, emotions, physical beings, and more.

We as Christians don't focus on "what ifs". This is what we KNOW to be a fact: God is the one True God. There are simply no other Gods before him. Christian families have heard directly from God, and seen Him work, so his existence and presence exists, and we have no doubt of that.

So, as Christians knowing that, the other "god" you mentioned about "brainwashing" us is simply doesn't exist.

We believe in God's Truth because we want to, not because some god brainwashed us too.

If there is a "god" to influence us for the worse, it's the devil. (who is not a god.)

He sends temptation our way, and it is our job to withstand it through the power of God.

Well that is not realy much of an argument... You just said I was wrong because you think so.

And anyways, what if what you just told me is actually what the "evil god"(not the devil. The theoretical deity would just make up a devil so you would not notice the real evil) influenced you to do?
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 6:08 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Well that is not realy much of an argument... You just said I was wrong because you think so.

And anyways, what if what you just told me is actually what the "evil god"(not the devil. The theoretical deity would just make up a devil so you would not notice the real evil) influenced you to do?


What point are you trying to make? The theoretical deity you refer to (the evil god) is what I will begin with.

For the evil god to influence me (again, not the devil) to say things like that, and to influence other Christians too, then would our lies be as influential as they are today? Many people have testimonies on how Christians, through the words they speak, have lead them to God.

How many people in the world believe in an evil god versus the amount of people who believe there is a God and devil? Even if without believing IN the God and devil, simply acknowledging there are the too.

I would go on for longer, but sorry, I have to go.

Thank you for this debate, and I'll return to it when I get back.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 6:26 pm
Quoting Alex Rode

What point are you trying to make? The theoretical deity you refer to (the evil god) is what I will begin with.

For the evil god to influence me (again, not the devil) to say things like that, and to influence other Christians too, then would our lies be as influential as they are today? Many people have testimonies on how Christians, through the words they speak, have lead them to God.

How many people in the world believe in an evil god versus the amount of people who believe there is a God and devil? Even if without believing IN the God and devil, simply acknowledging there are the too.

I would go on for longer, but sorry, I have to go.

Thank you for this debate, and I'll return to it when I get back.

And what if humans were created to not be able to understand evil god? That would make christianity seem legitimate even though wrong. That goes for all relgions, phylosophy and science.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 6:31 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Yeah... But why did your god make love to be a choice? If he created everything, he created love and all its characteristics, no?

Also, what if there is another god who made up yours and brainwashed "that family" to spread what would in this case be a lie?
That's absurd and you know it. There can only be one infinite or else they will cease to be infinite.
No, if certain characteristics of something are changed it will cease to be that thing.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 6:59 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Yeah... But why did your god make love to be a choice? If he created everything, he created love and all its characteristics, no?

Also, what if there is another god who made up yours and brainwashed "that family" to spread what would in this case be a lie?
That's absurd and you know it. There can only be one infinite or else they will cease to be infinite.
No, if certain characteristics of something are changed it will cease to be that thing.

What I said is actually the only statement physically able of being thought and/or expressed that is NOT absurd.

I never said anything about changing. I never said anything about there being multiple ultimates. But how do you know your ultimate is true and mine is wrong?
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:07 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
Christianity is the longest lasting religion, and has withstood major drawbacks, many, many, many times.

Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and many other religions precede Christianity and continue today.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:13 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and many other religions precede Christianity and continue today.

Native American totemisms exist for thousanda of yeats also.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:15 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
Except that that's not evolution; the big cod had the genes for both large size and small. The big ones all got killed, leaving only the survivors who had lost the genes for large size.

Information has been lost; the survivors are better suited to live in the altered environment, but are less able in the original setting.

If anything, it's DEvolution.

That's what evolution is. All life evolved from the ocean, yet can we survive in the ocean? No. So did we devolve from the fish and reptiles, as we can no longer survive in the original setting?
As for your comment on genes, that is also what evolution is. A change in genetic structure.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:17 pm
Quoting Areetsa C
"Evolution" is random mutations that magically create new and more effective genes.
"Devolution" is random mutations that result in LESS genes and less effectiveness.

"Bull excrement" is what your comment is. We have less genes than a grape plant, so are we lesser organisms?
Dropping harmful or obsolete genetic code in order to better survive is still evolution.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:21 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and many other religions precede Christianity and continue today.

Don't mean to be that guy, but Islam came after Christianity.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:41 pm
Quoting Jack K
Don't mean to be that guy, but Islam came after Christianity.

Sorry, yeah. I didn't source check that one.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:42 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Quoting A bunch of Christians

It seems that your key argument and rebuttal is that "God is great, and before there was sin, we were great too".
That's not an argument.
I'm going to give you the history of most religions, again:
Christianity, like almost all religions that i know of, were created for two simple purposes:
Keeping curious people quiet, and keeping people in line

Prior to the development of theories such as those of Darwin, humans had no understanding of how they came to be, and no real incentive for obeying laws.

So in true Human style, a group of people decided, "Hey, let's make a story about some mythical being/beings that exist somewhere else, and are so powerful that they can see what you're thinking. Then let's tell everyone that when you die, you either go to a paradise for all eternity, or to the worst place imaginable, and that we're the only ones that can ensure which one you go to. So that no one asks any questions, we'll say that these/this being/beings created everything. We'll also say that questioning them results in going to the horrible place"

Thus religion developed, with a small handful of people deciding what became religious "fact" to keep the masses happy. When competing religions came along, they were either assimilated, or shown to be heinous evils. By this method, certain religions grew.

Ultimately, however, nothing lasts forever, and there came a time when men sat down and started thinking about better explanations for the phenomenae of the universe.

Initially, these people were silenced by force where possible, and ridiculed where not (Galileo and Newton are good examples). However, you can't stop the spread of an idea.

And that pretty much brings us up to modern times.

Have fun

First off, I take it you are an atheist. Second, I admit, Christianity and other religions have gone through times where they commit evil. Third, when religions were founded, people had far less technology and knowledge to come up with theories like evolution, and therefore, gods, goddesses, and monsters were the best the could come up with. Most religions started as an explanation for things dar beyond what our ancient ancestors could understand. Fourth, clearly, you think religion is a problem and that it creates problems. This is true when the wrong people run the show. Example: Your point about Galileo and Newton. Both men were living in a time where greed and corruption haunted the Church. The leaders of the church at this time knew that their knowledge would decrease their power and did everything in their power to bring them down. The Catholic Church now embraces science and theories like evolution, the big bang theory, and even alien life. In more recent times, radical militants from several religions kill in the name of religion. These are full of greed people or misinterpret their scripture, if you literally interpret the bible, then creation took a week and a snake wrecked humanity. This is symbolism though, like I said, most religions use symbolism to explain events that we can't understand. Greed makes people do horrible things and at any point all religions commit terrible acts.
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:55 pm
I have an idea about how religions go through phases and I want you guys to look at it. Keep in mind they go through this in different order and often repeat phases.
1) Persecuted (Holocaust, Roman persecutions, etc...)
2) Persecutor (Spanish Inquisition, etc...)
3) Existing (Just being there, like Catholics today, no large scale genocide and no crusade (no pun intended) against someone else)
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 7:58 pm
Quoting Jack K
I have an idea about how religions go through phases and I want you guys to look at it. Keep in mind they go through this in different order and often repeat phases.
1) Persecuted (Holocaust, Roman persecutions, etc...)
2) Persecutor (Spanish Inquisition, etc...)
3) Existing (Just being there, like Catholics today, no large scale genocide and no crusade (no pun intended) against someone else)

Identify yourself! What sorcery is this neutrality you re standing for??
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 8:09 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Identify yourself! What sorcery is this neutrality you re standing for??

What do you mean?
Permalink
| September 8, 2013, 8:20 pm
Quoting Jack K
I have an idea about how religions go through phases and I want you guys to look at it. Keep in mind they go through this in different order and often repeat phases.
1) Persecuted (Holocaust, Roman persecutions, etc...)
2) Persecutor (Spanish Inquisition, etc...)
3) Existing (Just being there, like Catholics today, no large scale genocide and no crusade (no pun intended) against someone else)

It's good to see someone who isn't raging like a firestorm about this.
However, you left a phase out:
4.) Supremacism: Where a religion believes that it is the best/right/most holy/only true religion.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 3:11 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
4.) Supremacism: Where a religion believes that it is the best/right/most holy/only true religion.
For more than one religion to lead to God, He would have to be schizophrenic!
He would have to go to one group of people and tell them about Himself and what He wants from them, then go somewhere else a give the people there a totally different story and new demands!

That's where Christianity is so different. There's no way for us to get to Heaven, but God has provided a way. Unlike all human religions which are about man trying to get to a god of some kind, Christianity is God reaching down to us ready to save!
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 4:22 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
It's good to see someone who isn't raging like a firestorm about this.
However, you left a phase out:
4.) Supremacism: Where a religion believes that it is the best/right/most holy/only true religion.

I would include that under persecutor stage. But it's true most religions act that way at one point or another.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:06 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
4.) Supremacism: Where a religion believes that it is the best/right/most holy/only true religion.
For more than one religion to lead to God, He would have to be schizophrenic!
He would have to go to one group of people and tell them about Himself and what He wants from them, then go somewhere else a give the people there a totally different story and new demands!

That's where Christianity is so different. There's no way for us to get to Heaven, but God has provided a way. Unlike all human religions which are about man trying to get to a god of some kind, Christianity is God reaching down to us ready to save!

Well I think that religions that are similar like Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all different interpretations of the same events, Jews and Muslims both believe that Jesus was a historical figure who God gave power, like a prophet, but not the son of God. Christians believe he is God's son. God in my opinion doesn't condemn you for not doing everything to the letter, so long as you live a virtuous life you should be all set. I don't think that God said something like "only Baptists can go to heaven" or "only Orthodox Jews can go to heaven", that would put a lot of people in a bad place.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:11 pm
I just want to say I'm again surprised how civilized and mature everyone has been here, granted some people have gotten a little extreme, but I have not personally seen anything malicious or cruel. (This is a first for me, every discussion I'm in disintegrates into 'well your view is dumb' and cursing the other guy)
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:14 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend


That's where Christianity is so different.

Yeah... But not really.

A good comparison to Jesus could be Prometheus.

On the other hand, christianity has a lot of this evil god jazz, just like other religions. Like half of the old testament. Which is a part of christianity.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:21 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
On the other hand, christianity has a lot of this evil god jazz, just like other religions. Like half of the old testament. Which is a part of christianity.
Like what? I've read the old testament, God did what was best for humanity. Show me where He acted imperfectly.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:29 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
On the other hand, christianity has a lot of this evil god jazz, just like other religions. Like half of the old testament. Which is a part of christianity.
Like what? I've read the old testament, God did what was best for humanity. Show me where He acted imperfectly.

I think he means that God shows a lot more anger in the old testament like with Sodom and Gomorra. Also with encouraging the Israelites to go to war like 6 or 7 times.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:36 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God did what was best for humanity.

Why am I not dead?
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 5:40 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
4.) Supremacism: Where a religion believes that it is the best/right/most holy/only true religion.

A religion ain't much of a religion if the religion doesn't believe it is supreme.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 7:43 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Why am I not dead?

Because you have a purpose which you have not yet fulfilled.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 7:44 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
A religion ain't much of a religion if the religion doesn't believe it is supreme.

Hinduism.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 7:47 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Because you have a purpose which you have not yet fulfilled.

In your worldview, I am a scourge of evil and sin that corrupts everybody around.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 7:48 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hinduism.

Good point.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:43 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In your worldview, I am a scourge of evil and sin that corrupts everybody around.

That is simply false. If you are not me, don't make claims about my world view.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:43 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hinduism.

Jump in real quickly and say, Hinduism is VERY tolerant of other religions. While some Christians literally throw a fit if they get within a mile radius of a Hindu Temple, all Hindus openly visit churches. Trust me, I know. Anyways, jumping out!
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:44 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
That is simply false. If you are not me, don't make claims about my world view.

I am the master of your universe in your worldview. You just don't know it yet.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:47 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
That is simply false. If you are not me, don't make claims about my world view.

Are you christian? If so, I am correct.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:49 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
master of universe

He-man?
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:49 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
He-man?

Now I have that high-pitched He-man whine song meme thing stuck in my head... Thanks.


Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:50 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Are you christian? If so, I am correct.

Yes, I am Christian, and no, you are not correct.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:50 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I am the master of your universe in your worldview. You just don't know it yet.

Unless you are God, you are not master of the universe.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:51 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Unless you are God, you are not master of the universe.

There you go.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:52 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yes, I am Christian, and no, you are not correct.

Then who is the most corruptive person that could exist?
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:53 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Unless you are God, you are not master of the universe.

What if I'm the father of God? Who is in fact merely a Canadian teenager right now, but through time travel I will establish God in the past and form the universe. Time travel - the solution to all problems. I may have watched a bit too much Dr. Who and Bill and Ted though.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:54 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Then who is the most corruptive person that could exist?

Obviously the devil. However, if I go back in time to create the universe, you could go back in time to create sin and thus be the devil.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:54 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
See you around. I hope someone gets back to reply to my comments on human evolution above...

Hey Luke,

Well, I'm willing to take you up, but a few things first.

1. Let's all remember that Evolution is part Scientific Theory, par Unconfirmed Hypothesis.

2. The Theory part, Microevolution is very plausible, and I actually believe it! It makes total sense.

3. The Hypothesis part, Macroevolution, is quite ridiculous, to be blunt. The explanations that Evolutionists give are hilarious, in my opinion.

But anyways, Let's begin!


Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:55 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Then who is the most corruptive person that could exist?
Good question. I don't know.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:57 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
What if I'm the father of God? Who is in fact merely a Canadian teenager right now, but through time travel I will establish God in the past and form the universe. Time travel - the solution to all problems. I may have watched a bit too much Dr. Who and Bill and Ted though.

Yeah...
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:57 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Obviously the devil. However, if I go back in time to create the universe, you could go back in time to create sin and thus be the devil.

Reserved universal creation for myself. Still have to pick a reason though...

By the way, once we go back to Day One, be ready to fight the most awesome war of all times for the surpreme rule over the meaning of life.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:58 pm
Quoting Mark McPeek
Hey Luke,

Well, I'm willing to take you up, but a few things first.

1. Let's all remember that Evolution is part Scientific Theory, par Unconfirmed Hypothesis.

2. The Theory part, Microevolution is very plausible, and I actually believe it! It makes total sense.

3. The Hypothesis part, Macroevolution, is quite ridiculous, to be blunt. The explanations that Evolutionists give are hilarious, in my opinion.

But anyways, Let's begin!

Not for this topic.
There's already a topic for that:
http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=89924

Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:59 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Obviously the devil. However, if I go back in time to create the universe, you could go back in time to create sin and thus be the devil.

The devil is not a person.
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:59 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I may have watched a bit too much Dr. Who and Bill and Ted though.

Or listened to me. Those two have some weird ideas about time...
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 8:59 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Mark McPeek
Hey Luke,

Well, I'm willing to take you up, but a few things first.


1. Let's all remember that Evolution is part Scientific Theory, par Unconfirmed Hypothesis.

2. The Theory part, Microevolution is very plausible, and I actually believe it! It makes total sense.

3. The Hypothesis part, Macroevolution, is quite ridiculous, to be blunt. The explanations that Evolutionists give are hilarious, in my opinion.

But anyways, Let's begin!

Not for this topic.
There's already a topic for that:
http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=89924

Oops, thanks man!
Permalink
| September 9, 2013, 10:58 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
On the other hand, christianity has a lot of this evil god jazz, just like other religions. Like half of the old testament. Which is a part of christianity.
Like what? I've read the old testament, God did what was best for humanity. Show me where He acted imperfectly.

Best for humanity? Don't even get me going
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 5:39 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Best for humanity? Don't even get me going
I see you can't name a single instance where God did something less than perfect.

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 5:56 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In your worldview, I am a scourge of evil and sin that corrupts everybody around.
No. You are merely lost, one of the many that have turned away from God. That is all.

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:04 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In your worldview, I am a scourge of evil and sin that corrupts everybody around.
No. You are merely lost, one of the many that have turned away from God. That is all.

If I had a chance to go to your heaven, I would turn it down.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:09 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Best for humanity? Don't even get me going
I see you can't name a single instance where God did something less than perfect.

Because your opinion on the subject is very biased. If you said God did something imperfect, that would be sacrilege.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:09 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I'm asking Reaper.

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:12 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I'm asking Reaper.

So your god did do something wrong in your opinion?
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:16 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So your god did do something wrong in your opinion?
No. That's why I'm asking Reaper what he think God did wrong.

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 6:35 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
If I had a chance to go to your heaven, I would turn it down.

You already did.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 10:13 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Because your opinion on the subject is very biased.
Isn't that true about anyone's opinion on anything?

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 10:13 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Because your opinion on the subject is very biased.
Isn't that true about anyone's opinion on anything?

Not completely. While I believe I have a choice what to think and may at any time change my worldview/religion/stuff, you were raised to never believe anything else, or you will suffer. In christianity, this "choice" between believing and not is more like the choice between suffering and not and nothing else.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 10:23 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
You already did.

I would do it a million more times.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 10:23 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I would do it a million more times.
Why?

Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 12:09 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I would do it a million more times.
Why?

I hate the idea of your free will. I could choose between two things. Big choice.

Actually, not even a choice. Just predictable action done according to my upbringing. Just a question if I prefer feeling nice or being honest.

How is being inhumanly punished as a result of choice you do not know about then free will? And how would I know you are the one who is correct?
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 12:23 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In christianity, this "choice" between believing and not is more like the choice between suffering and not and nothing else.
Where did you get these false ideas?
Christianity happens to agree with logic, the Bible is backed up by archeology, and it is consistent with scientific law. That's why I'm a Christian.
Permalink
| September 10, 2013, 12:23 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
In christianity, this "choice" between believing and not is more like the choice between suffering and not and nothing else.
Where did you get these false ideas?
Christianity happens to agree with logic, the Bible is backed up by archeology, and it is consistent with scientific law. That's why I'm a Christian.

So you believe in evidence or god?

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| September 10, 2013, 12:25 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So you believe in evidence or god?
God, Who has given us evidence of Himself.

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| September 10, 2013, 12:29 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I hate the idea of your free will. I could choose between two things. Big choice.

Actually, not even a choice. Just predictable action done according to my upbringing. Just a question if I prefer feeling nice or being honest.

How is being inhumanly punished as a result of choice you do not know about then free will? And how would I know you are the one who is correct?
You are using your free will all the time. A free will is required to make any choice.
Could you rewrite the second and third parts of you comment, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
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| September 10, 2013, 12:44 pm
I believe what Deus is saying is that nearly all, including you, who follow still practiced established religions were brought up to believe in them. It is extremely rare for a child to follow an established religion when those who raised them/were important in their life were not involved in the teachings of such things. I'm almost entirely sure your parents and/or guardians are of the same faith that you are. If you are taught something to be the truth at a young age and you decide that for you that makes sense and that you wish to believe what you were told, then that is in fact the truth. You see, if you truly believe in something enough, then it is truth. Your perception of existence is relative to your mind alone, and thus it is ultimately your decision as to what is real and what is not. However, outside influence is of course a key factor as to how you decide to choose such things. I can look up that there are about 260 known living species of monkeys out there on Earth. Do I know that myself? Nope. Will I ever be able to go out there and find them all? Nope. But a lot of people have gathered information to establish such things, and it seems logical to me. I'm alright in believing that. But I have to trust those who have seen it themselves. The same thing applies for a ton of things in life, nearly anything. We rely on each other. None of us were around to see for ourselves the establishment of all of these religions. But sure, we can believe in them, because others may have. The problem occurs when you begin to close your mind to other possibilities. The what ifs can kill you, but it's good to see more than one side, I think. Humans have a natural tendency to be aligned with things, be a part of a 'group'. And can be entirely stubborn, as well. That's great, it can often bring content to your life and it's just fantastic to feel happy and that you're at peace with an 'answer'. But I personally believe there are no definite answers unless you wish to believe in them. It's all a matter in what you wish to live by. Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism. All popular stances. You want to know what your purpose is, and people before you have as well, and have ended up with such things as their purpose. But to believe yours is the true definite answer merely because it is what others before you have concluded seems a bit...well, boring I suppose. I'm glad many of you have come to a conclusion you're happy with. But to say for certain that your conclusion is the ultimate truth and that someone across the globe who was born under different circumstances and thus believes in something entirely different is 'wrong' is a bit odd to me. What makes you more correct than he/she? Heck, none of us REALLY knows what's 'right'. And thus we're all right and wrong at the same time. Sorry for the lengthy comment, but I hope you understand my point.
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| September 10, 2013, 1:43 pm
Quoting Josh B.
I believe what Deus is saying is that nearly all, including you, who follow still practiced established religions were brought up to believe in them. It is extremely rare for a child to follow an established religion when those who raised them/were important in their life were not involved in the teachings of such things. I'm almost entirely sure your parents and/or guardians are of the same faith that you are. If you are taught something to be the truth at a young age and you decide that for you that makes sense and that you wish to believe what you were told, then that is in fact the truth. You see, if you truly believe in something enough, then it is truth. Your perception of existence is relative to your mind alone, and thus it is ultimately your decision as to what is real and what is not. However, outside influence is of course a key factor as to how you decide to choose such things. I can look up that there are about 260 known living species of monkeys out there on Earth. Do I know that myself? Nope. Will I ever be able to go out there and find them all? Nope. But a lot of people have gathered information to establish such things, and it seems logical to me. I'm alright in believing that. But I have to trust those who have seen it themselves. The same thing applies for a ton of things in life, nearly anything. We rely on each other. None of us were around to see for ourselves the establishment of all of these religions. But sure, we can believe in them, because others may have. The problem occurs when you begin to close your mind to other possibilities. The what ifs can kill you, but it's good to see more than one side, I think. Humans have a natural tendency to be aligned with things, be a part of a 'group'. And can be entirely stubborn, as well. That's great, it can often bring content to your life and it's just fantastic to feel happy and that you're at peace with an 'answer'. But I personally believe there are no definite answers unless you wish to believe in them. It's all a matter in what you wish to live by. Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism. All popular stances. You want to know what your purpose is, and people before you have as well, and have ended up with such things as their purpose. But to believe yours is the true definite answer merely because it is what others before you have concluded seems a bit...well, boring I suppose. I'm glad many of you have come to a conclusion you're happy with. But to say for certain that your conclusion is the ultimate truth and that someone across the globe who was born under different circumstances and thus believes in something entirely different is 'wrong' is a bit odd to me. What makes you more correct than he/she? Heck, none of us REALLY knows what's 'right'. And thus we're all right and wrong at the same time. Sorry for the lengthy comment, but I hope you understand my point.

Your comment brings home what I was trying to say, just in a more peaceful manner. None of us are absolutely correct, and who knows? maybe we're all wrong, and there's a bunch of gods that don't like what any of us are doing. (And yes, that sentence is grammatically correct, even with the ? in the middle). I think it is very important that we don't try to make anyone else believe what we believe. If we can make them think like us for a few moments, to understand our side of the argument, that's good, but we don't need to "convert" anyone (probably the biggest problem I have with Christianity is the whole "convert the heathens" idea) to our way of thinking permanently. So Josh, ultimately, has shown us all a good way forward. Let's not be so vehement about all this. For people like me, atheists, for want of a better term, we don't need to disprove religion. For strong believers, you don't need to convert anyone to your religion, because people might not want that. I think ultimately what I would like to see happen here is if people stopped going on about how Christianity is the only way people can be "saved", becasue it might not be, and if people just talked about why they favoured religion over atheism, or visa versa.

On the subject of truth, Josh raises a scary point: We can't know if something is fact or not. The old Dilbert Animated cartoon episode "The Fact" highlights how people will believe almost anything if told about it in the right manner. There is no way we can safely believe that we are not in some Matrix-like world, and there is no way we can also assume that our little floating ball in the far corner of the Milky Way is in any way important. Do you consider the little ant hill at the end of your garden to be important?

One final comment:
Josh talked of people being raised in a strong religious culture accepting that religion as true fact. I'm the opposite. The further I was "indoctrinated", the less I believed. The more I learnt, the less sense it made.

Make of that what you will.
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| September 10, 2013, 3:32 pm
Quoting Josh B.

I see where you are coming from and agree with you on some things. I agree that I have no clue who is right and that our upbringing determines our faith. I was raised Catholic and therefore I am. Also, Catholics could be totally wrong, and Hindus could be right, but I have no clue. All I know is that I believe in the Catholic religion and that if you don't thats your choice.
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| September 10, 2013, 4:57 pm
Quoting Josh B.
You see, if you truly believe in something enough, then it is truth.

What happens if I truly believe that statement is false?
The mind does not create truth.
There is a real world with absolute truths, absolute rights and absolute wrongs.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:31 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Reserved universal creation for myself. Still have to pick a reason though...

By the way, once we go back to Day One, be ready to fight the most awesome war of all times for the surpreme rule over the meaning of life.

Sounds good.
You know, if someone did go back in time to the first moment of the universe, they would need to be very well prepared as every single time traveler from the entire universe and all eternity would be there.

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| September 10, 2013, 6:34 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
I see you can't name a single instance where God did something less than perfect.

You can call everything a perfect part of His plan. By the same token, you can say that everything He did He messed up on. We need to see His blueprints before we can resolve that issue.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:36 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
What happens if I truly believe that statement is false?
The mind does not create truth.
There is a real world with absolute truths, absolute rights and absolute wrongs.

Nothing is absolute with one exception. The fact that nothing is absolute. Our perception shapes our reality, all concepts are judged against the context which our perception has provided us.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:39 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I think it is very important that we don't try to make anyone else believe what we believe. If we can make them think like us for a few moments, to understand our side of the argument, that's good, but we don't need to "convert" anyone (probably the biggest problem I have with Christianity is the whole "convert the heathens" idea) to our way of thinking permanently. So Josh, ultimately, has shown us all a good way forward. Let's not be so vehement about all this. For people like me, atheists, for want of a better term, we don't need to disprove religion. For strong believers, you don't need to convert anyone to your religion, because people might not want that. I think ultimately what I would like to see happen here is if people stopped going on about how Christianity is the only way people can be "saved", becasue it might not be, and if people just talked about why they favoured religion over atheism, or visa versa.
This is ridiculous! If I'm religious, of course I'm going to try to convert people. If I didn't, it would be the most heartless thing I could possibly do. Why? Because following Christ is the only way to be saved. Christianity is those people who accept God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. If you don't accept it, then of course you're not saved. It's simple logic. Christianity cannot exist if it does not seek to convert people.
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
On the subject of truth, Josh raises a scary point: We can't know if something is fact or not. The old Dilbert Animated cartoon episode "The Fact" highlights how people will believe almost anything if told about it in the right manner. There is no way we can safely believe that we are not in some Matrix-like world, and there is no way we can also assume that our little floating ball in the far corner of the Milky Way is in any way important. Do you consider the little ant hill at the end of your garden to be important?
You sometimes have to assume something is true, or else there would be no reason to do anything. Of course we can't tell for sure if something is true, that's why we trust God to do it for us. If you don't believe in God (God meaning a God who cares about humanity), then you have no reason to believe anything is true and not just an illusion.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:46 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Nothing is absolute with one exception. The fact that nothing is absolute. Our perception shapes our reality, all concepts are judged against the context which our perception has provided us.

And how can you tell that nothing is absolute?
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| September 10, 2013, 6:47 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
And how can you tell that nothing is absolute?

Good question...
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| September 10, 2013, 6:50 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
And how can you tell that nothing is absolute?

Actually, he IS wrong. Everything is absolute, we just do not know which of the infinite possibilities is correct. Which makes this statement just as false, except it is in its nature to expect being such.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:52 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Actually, he IS wrong. Everything is absolute, we just do not know which of the infinite possibilities is correct. Which makes this statement just as false, except it is in its nature to expect being such.

Yeah, that's probably more like it.
But if you just assume one thing (that God exists), then you don't have to worry about those infinite possibilities: You know they're in good hands.
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| September 10, 2013, 6:57 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
What happens if I truly believe that statement is false?
The mind does not create truth.
There is a real world with absolute truths, absolute rights and absolute wrongs.

It's true if you believe it to be false, because you believe it to be true that the statement is false.
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| September 10, 2013, 9:12 pm
Quoting Josh B.
It's true if you believe it to be false, because you believe it to be true that the statement is false.

So therefore it's false, because I believe it's false. Or at least, it's false for me.
Then what determines the truth of other things I believe?
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| September 11, 2013, 10:07 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yeah, that's probably more like it.
But if you just assume one thing (that God exists), then you don't have to worry about those infinite possibilities: You know they're in good hands.

Ahh, I see. You like the sanctity of not having to consider the possibility that life is meaningless and that, at any moment, the world may suddenly come to an end, and that there will be nothing after
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| September 11, 2013, 3:21 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
So therefore it's false, because I believe it's false. Or at least, it's false for me.
Then what determines the truth of other things I believe?


How about.. a moral standard set by God? And we go right back to the start of the debate...
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| September 11, 2013, 6:17 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Ahh, I see. You like the sanctity of not having to consider the possibility that life is meaningless and that, at any moment, the world may suddenly come to an end, and that there will be nothing after

Yep. After all, why even consider that possibility? If it's true, then there's absolutely nothing I can do about it, and I'd rather live with hope than with the depressing worldview you seem to be promoting.
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| September 11, 2013, 9:14 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Yep. After all, why even consider that possibility? If it's true, then there's absolutely nothing I can do about it, and I'd rather live with hope than with the depressing worldview you seem to be promoting.

You could try doing something about it. You could live your life more fully if you knew giving away stuff will not make you go to a paradise or anything.
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| September 12, 2013, 1:22 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Ahh, I see. You like the sanctity of not having to consider the possibility that life is meaningless and that, at any moment, the world may suddenly come to an end, and that there will be nothing after
Of course! All believers find great peace in that fact. It's one of the benefits of having the truth, that there is nothing that you need to fear and that every life has a purpose.
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| September 12, 2013, 1:29 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You could try doing something about it. You could live your life more fully if you knew giving away stuff will not make you go to a paradise or anything.
Giving stuff away doesn't get you to Heaven. Nothing we can do ever will. Jesus Christ is the Way, the only way.
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| September 12, 2013, 1:32 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Giving stuff away doesn't get you to Heaven. Nothing we can do ever will. Jesus Christ is the Way, the only way.

That was not my point.

I am saying that if life IS meaningless (which is probably not true because somebody HAD to win (I hope it was me) the first war), you could spend your life better than to go to temples and pray.
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| September 12, 2013, 2:15 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Ahh, I see. You like the sanctity of not having to consider the possibility that life is meaningless and that, at any moment, the world may suddenly come to an end, and that there will be nothing after
Of course! All believers find great peace in that fact. It's one of the benefits of having the truth, that there is nothing that you need to fear and that every life has a purpose.

Whereas I am quite happy to accept that life is almost certainly meaningless. The only purpose in life is one you give yourself.
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| September 12, 2013, 3:02 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You could try doing something about it. You could live your life more fully if you knew giving away stuff will not make you go to a paradise or anything.

Actually, giving stuff away makes me happy. And it makes others happy. It doesn't get me into paradise, only Jesus can do that.
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| September 12, 2013, 10:20 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Whereas I am quite happy to accept that life is almost certainly meaningless. The only purpose in life is one you give yourself.
Why would you want to believe that? Wouldn't you rather have hope?
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| September 12, 2013, 10:34 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Whereas I am quite happy to accept that life is almost certainly meaningless. The only purpose in life is one you give yourself.
Why would you want to believe that? Wouldn't you rather have hope?

And risk it being false? No thanks
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| September 13, 2013, 2:15 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Whereas I am quite happy to accept that life is almost certainly meaningless. The only purpose in life is one you give yourself.
Why would you want to believe that? Wouldn't you rather have hope?

Personally, I would hate to believe that life is meaningless, and that after death, there is only death. That would just be so depressing and really brings into question if people should even do anything.
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| September 13, 2013, 7:06 am
Quoting Jack K
Personally, I would hate to believe that life is meaningless, and that after death, there is only death. That would just be so depressing and really brings into question if people should even do anything.

Because I believe that, I am the happiest person on the planet. Well, also because I believe time does not exist, but yeah.
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| September 13, 2013, 7:22 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Because I believe that, I am the happiest person on the planet. Well, also because I believe time does not exist, but yeah.

Well that's how you choose to live your life, and not mine to critique. I think I may know what you are talking about with time, and if I'm right I somewhat agree with you.
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| September 13, 2013, 3:51 pm
Quoting Jack K
Personally, I would hate to believe that life is meaningless, and that after death, there is only death. That would just be so depressing and really brings into question if people should even do anything.

You make your own purpose, and I believe that that is far more meanigfull then having it preordained to you by some being whose very existence is so easily called into question
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| September 13, 2013, 4:44 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Because I believe that, I am the happiest person on the planet. Well, also because I believe time does not exist, but yeah.

That is an interesting statement. If there is no God then that means that there is no moral law. And if that was true, then why is there law? To protect you? But from what? There is no God so why is there law? If there is no law then why can you not murder a man on the street? Steal all the money you want? If you die SO WHAT! Nothing happens! You can do anything! If there is no God than you can do whatever you want! But, there is law. You figure out the rest...
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| September 13, 2013, 4:45 pm
Quoting Jack K
Well that's how you choose to live your life, and not mine to critique. I think I may know what you are talking about with time, and if I'm right I somewhat agree with you.

If you're talking about the fact that "time" as we measure it (Hours, minutes, etc) is a human creation, and that it technically doesn't exist then I agree also. Unless, of course, you're talking about something else.
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| September 13, 2013, 4:46 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
You make your own purpose, and I believe that that is far more meanigfull then having it preordained to you by some being whose very existence is so easily called into question

I didn't mean to sound like I believe in predestination. I believe you can choose how your life goes, it's just that if death is the final end, then your life was merely an existence and that it doesn't matter how you live it.
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| September 13, 2013, 4:48 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
If you're talking about the fact that "time" as we measure it (Hours, minutes, etc) is a human creation, and that it technically doesn't exist then I agree also. Unless, of course, you're talking about something else.

I say that our organization of time is just that a method of organization, I'm not sure what Deus was saying though.
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| September 13, 2013, 4:50 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
That is an interesting statement. If there is no God then that means that there is no moral law. And if that was true, then why is there law? To protect you? But from what? There is no God so why is there law? If there is no law then why can you not murder a man on the street? Steal all the money you want? If you die SO WHAT! Nothing happens! You can do anything! If there is no God than you can do whatever you want! But, there is law. You figure out the rest...

Most prefer the comforts of life over the release of death. Death in itself is the consequence, even if no other punishment comes with it.
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| September 13, 2013, 4:52 pm
Quoting Jack K
I didn't mean to sound like I believe in predestination. I believe you can choose how your life goes, it's just that if death is the final end, then your life was merely an existence and that it doesn't matter how you live it.

And maybe that's what it is. Who knows?
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| September 13, 2013, 5:01 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And maybe that's what it is. Who knows?

Ture that. Someone is right, the real question is who?
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| September 13, 2013, 5:16 pm
Quoting Jack K
Ture that. Someone is right, the real question is who?

Hey, we might both be wrong! Wouldn't that be funny
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| September 13, 2013, 5:18 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Hey, we might both be wrong! Wouldn't that be funny

Yeah. We'll find out one day though.
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| September 13, 2013, 5:23 pm
Quoting Jack K
Yeah. We'll find out one day though.

Yeah. One day...
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| September 13, 2013, 5:26 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Hey, we might both be wrong! Wouldn't that be funny

You probably are. The statistical probability for that is infinitely large (100% in praxis).
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| September 13, 2013, 6:24 pm
This thread is extremely amusing to read through. To be honest, I skipped around some, and didn't actually read beyond the first half.

I think it's safe to say a good deal of what Deus says is to attract attention, stir up more debate, annoy people, make them want to punch something really really (really) hard, or all of the above. I also think he has an unquenchable desire to be different, which may or may not be the reason he has been driven to think of some very interesting theories that are quite nearly unbelievable (but obviously not quite completely since he himself believes them).

Sorry Deus, had to say that. I feel much better now. Feel free to point out grammatical errors (I'm sure there are some, it's late), and do your best to "destroy" my comment paragraph by paragraph.

Also, I find your overconfidence very amusing. You speak as though your opinion is fact,

"You probably are [wrong]. The statistical probability for that is infinitely large (100% in praxis)."

considering you have posted not 3, not 2, not 1, but zero links to back up your arguments of "fact".

Okay I'm done know, feel free to do what you do.

By the way, this stays in this group. No hard feelings outside I hope, I have nothing against you personally, just the way you debate and the way you present your arguments. Granted that may be apart of you, I think you understand my meaning.


[EDIT]

I hope that this isn't considered an attack on anyone, but rather the way in which they debate in this group. If the admins see fit, I will delete the comment.
Permalink
| September 14, 2013, 2:08 pm
Quoting Caleb R
This thread is extremely amusing to read through. To be honest, I skipped around some, and didn't actually read beyond the first half.

I think it's safe to say a good deal of what Deus says is to attract attention, stir up more debate, annoy people, make them want to punch something really really (really) hard, or all of the above. I also think he has an unquenchable desire to be different, which may or may not be the reason he has been driven to think of some very interesting theories that are quite nearly unbelievable (but obviously not quite completely since he himself believes them).

Sorry Deus, had to say that. I feel much better now. Feel free to point out grammatical errors (I'm sure there are some, it's late), and do your best to "destroy" my comment paragraph by paragraph.

Also, I find your overconfidence very amusing. You speak as though your opinion is fact,

"You probably are [wrong]. The statistical probability for that is infinitely large (100% in praxis)."

considering you have posted not 3, not 2, not 1, but zero links to back up your arguments of "fact".

Okay I'm done know, feel free to do what you do.

By the way, this stays in this group. No hard feelings outside I hope, I have nothing against you personally, just the way you debate and the way you present your arguments. Granted that may be apart of you, I think you understand my meaning.


[EDIT]

I hope that this isn't considered an attack on anyone, but rather the way in which they debate in this group. If the admins see fit, I will delete the comment.

Dude. You nailed it. Thanks for putting it into words.
Permalink
| September 14, 2013, 2:17 pm
Quoting Caleb R
This thread is extremely amusing to read through. To be honest, I skipped around some, and didn't actually read beyond the first half.

I think it's safe to say a good deal of what Deus says is to attract attention, stir up more debate, annoy people, make them want to punch something really really (really) hard, or all of the above. I also think he has an unquenchable desire to be different, which may or may not be the reason he has been driven to think of some very interesting theories that are quite nearly unbelievable (but obviously not quite completely since he himself believes them).

Sorry Deus, had to say that. I feel much better now. Feel free to point out grammatical errors (I'm sure there are some, it's late), and do your best to "destroy" my comment paragraph by paragraph.

Also, I find your overconfidence very amusing. You speak as though your opinion is fact,

"You probably are [wrong]. The statistical probability for that is infinitely large (100% in praxis)."

considering you have posted not 3, not 2, not 1, but zero links to back up your arguments of "fact".

Okay I'm done know, feel free to do what you do.

By the way, this stays in this group. No hard feelings outside I hope, I have nothing against you personally, just the way you debate and the way you present your arguments. Granted that may be apart of you, I think you understand my meaning.


[EDIT]

I hope that this isn't considered an attack on anyone, but rather the way in which they debate in this group. If the admins see fit, I will delete the comment.

So, let's see if I've interpreted this correctly:
You dislike Deus' haughty approach and self-assurance, so you attack it in a very haughty and self-assured manner.

Congratulations hypocrite

Oh, and you'll likely respond with something about that not being your intention or meaning, but I'm sorry, meaning is derived by the receiver unless clearly made plain by the speaker (or in this case typist).

As you seem to think nothing is correct without evidence, here:
"This thread is extremely amusing to read through. To be honest, I skipped around some, and didn't actually read beyond the first half."
What a self-assured and fundamentally derogatory thing to say.
You admit that you did not even bother to read more than the first half, and yet you seek to pass judgement on a person?
Your "argument" has about as much credibility as a Wikipedia article does in a University assignment

As with a lot of people here, I respect you as a builder and as a person, but a comment like that is simply cruel and pointless. It has nothing to do with the topic, nothing to do with recent arguments, and reads like the pompous whining of a politician or child.

Okay, all that aside, please don't take this as an attack on you personally. I just don't think that that comment attacking Deus (because I'm sorry, that's what it was) was necessary.
Permalink
| September 14, 2013, 4:35 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
So, let's see if I've interpreted this correctly:
You dislike Deus' haughty approach and self-assurance, so you attack it in a very haughty and self-assured manner.

Congratulations hypocrite

Oh, and you'll likely respond with something about that not being your intention or meaning, but I'm sorry, meaning is derived by the receiver unless clearly made plain by the speaker (or in this case typist).

As you seem to think nothing is correct without evidence, here:
"This thread is extremely amusing to read through. To be honest, I skipped around some, and didn't actually read beyond the first half."
What a self-assured and fundamentally derogatory thing to say.
You admit that you did not even bother to read more than the first half, and yet you seek to pass judgement on a person?
Your "argument" has about as much credibility as a Wikipedia article does in a University assignment

As with a lot of people here, I respect you as a builder and as a person, but a comment like that is simply cruel and pointless. It has nothing to do with the topic, nothing to do with recent arguments, and reads like the pompous whining of a politician or child.

Okay, all that aside, please don't take this as an attack on you personally. I just don't think that that comment attacking Deus (because I'm sorry, that's what it was) was necessary.


You have some fair points here.

And I will have you know that I read every single one of Deus posts, and I found no evidence what so ever.

Also, I am a proud person, granted, and also very confident that I am right. I would like to point out, however, I do not say anything along the lines of "I am 100% right, there is no way I am not right, you are wrong." And I am sorry that you perceived this as an attack on Deus, and (as you predicted) that was not my intention. My intention was to draw attention to the observation that when people argue the way he does, it is extremely annoying and that it is not supported by any kind of evidence.

Also, my argument style is very similar to Deus' in my last comment. Did you find it obnoxious? offensive? conceited?

Point made.
Permalink
| September 14, 2013, 9:39 pm
Quoting Caleb R

You have some fair points here.

And I will have you know that I read every single one of Deus posts, and I found no evidence what so ever.

Also, I am a proud person, granted, and also very confident that I am right. I would like to point out, however, I do not say anything along the lines of "I am 100% right, there is no way I am not right, you are wrong." And I am sorry that you perceived this as an attack on Deus, and (as you predicted) that was not my intention. My intention was to draw attention to the observation that when people argue the way he does, it is extremely annoying and that it is not supported by any kind of evidence.

Also, my argument style is very similar to Deus' in my last comment. Did you find it obnoxious? offensive? conceited?

Point made.

Point acknowledged. Well, I must say, I'm impressed with your maturity. You handled that very well. What's your stance on this whole issue?
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 6:00 am
Quoting Caleb R

You have some fair points here.

And I will have you know that I read every single one of Deus posts, and I found no evidence what so ever.

Also, I am a proud person, granted, and also very confident that I am right. I would like to point out, however, I do not say anything along the lines of "I am 100% right, there is no way I am not right, you are wrong." And I am sorry that you perceived this as an attack on Deus, and (as you predicted) that was not my intention. My intention was to draw attention to the observation that when people argue the way he does, it is extremely annoying and that it is not supported by any kind of evidence.

Also, my argument style is very similar to Deus' in my last comment. Did you find it obnoxious? offensive? conceited?

Point made.

You are right. I posted no links. That is because there are none.

And as for being 100% correct, that is kind of not true, but still kind of yes true.

You see, the way you explain your universe may be right. But on the other hand, how do you know it is true? What if you were created by a deity thatmade your brain unable to understand truth? What if your brain was naturally created without the capability of seeing the universe as it is? And since there are infinite possible unimaginable scenarios, the possibility of being wrong is almost 100%. However in mathematics, when there is no number between two, they are the same number. Meaning I know for certain you are wrong.

Maybe you are not thogh. One option amongst infinite is correct, but nobody will ever know which. Even if an omnipotent god exist, it can not know if it really is the greatest.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 6:27 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You see, the way you explain your universe may be right. But on the other hand, how do you know it is true? What if you were created by a deity thatmade your brain unable to understand truth? What if your brain was naturally created without the capability of seeing the universe as it is? And since there are infinite possible unimaginable scenarios, the possibility of being wrong is almost 100%. However in mathematics, when there is no number between two, they are the same number. Meaning I know for certain you are wrong.

Maybe you are not thogh. One option amongst infinite is correct, but nobody will ever know which. Even if an omnipotent god exist, it can not know if it really is the greatest.
Why would said deity create people with brains unable to understand truth? It would in the Creator's interest that we understand truth, so there is almost a 100% chance that we CAN know reality for certain, and CAN know which option is correct. God being omnipotent must know that He is the greatest, the fact that there can only be one infinite also confirms this.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 7:32 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You see, the way you explain your universe may be right. But on the other hand, how do you know it is true? What if you were created by a deity thatmade your brain unable to understand truth? What if your brain was naturally created without the capability of seeing the universe as it is? And since there are infinite possible unimaginable scenarios, the possibility of being wrong is almost 100%. However in mathematics, when there is no number between two, they are the same number. Meaning I know for certain you are wrong.

Maybe you are not thogh. One option amongst infinite is correct, but nobody will ever know which. Even if an omnipotent god exist, it can not know if it really is the greatest.
Why would said deity create people with brains unable to understand truth? It would in the Creator's interest that we understand truth, so there is almost a 100% chance that we CAN know reality for certain, and CAN know which option is correct. God being omnipotent must know that He is the greatest, the fact that there can only be one infinite also confirms this.

What if some greater power gave seeming omnipotence to the over-being without telling it?

And anyways, the deity you say you believe has interest in us finding out may or may not be true. What if it is not in its best interest? What if there is something that is not god, but also not not-god, in one entity? What if the explanation is not comprehensible to us? The brain has a limited capacity, which is smaller than the information of the universe, ergo one person can never have all of universe's information in memory.And what if comprehension means just that?

You see, you may have been created to think just what you are thinking right now. If you take omnipotence into account, you are automatically wrong no matter what you think. And if you do not take it into account, your view of the universe is not complete and are thus automatically wrong.

Everybody loses!
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 7:51 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You are right. I posted no links. That is because there are none.

And as for being 100% correct, that is kind of not true, but still kind of yes true.

You see, the way you explain your universe may be right. But on the other hand, how do you know it is true? What if you were created by a deity thatmade your brain unable to understand truth? What if your brain was naturally created without the capability of seeing the universe as it is? And since there are infinite possible unimaginable scenarios, the possibility of being wrong is almost 100%. However in mathematics, when there is no number between two, they are the same number. Meaning I know for certain you are wrong.

Maybe you are not thogh. One option amongst infinite is correct, but nobody will ever know which. Even if an omnipotent god exist, it can not know if it really is the greatest.


This argument can be flipped very easily. Think of it this way, if man is just an evolved animal, then the brain is just a highly developed organ meant to help us survive. Therefore, it is a somewhat accidental organ meant to help us think "this is poisonous, this is not, I shall eat the non-poisonous stuff." How then, can we trust thoughts from an evolved thing to make conclusions about the universe?

I will admit that the only way we can tell if our deity is not blinding us is taking the Bible and understanding it to be truth. Other than that, I cannot give you proof we are being blinded.

In conclusion, both of our beliefs have the possibility that we cannot trust our thoughts, however, I have a book that I believe to be the word of God that says that I can.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 9:46 am
Quoting Caleb R

This argument can be flipped very easily. Think of it this way, if man is just an evolved animal, then the brain is just a highly developed organ meant to help us survive. Therefore, it is a somewhat accidental organ meant to help us think "this is poisonous, this is not, I shall eat the non-poisonous stuff." How then, can we trust thoughts from an evolved thing to make conclusions about the universe?

I will admit that the only way we can tell if our deity is not blinding us is taking the Bible and understanding it to be truth. Other than that, I cannot give you proof we are being blinded.

In conclusion, both of our beliefs have the possibility that we cannot trust our thoughts, however, I have a book that I believe to be the word of God that says that I can.

You have a book? Well, I can write one too and believe it is holy. And that does not make it any more or less true.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 10:14 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
You have a book? Well, I can write one too and believe it is holy. And that does not make it any more or less true.

I did not write this book.

Here is a thought for you, Deus, the Bible is incredibly historically accurate. Even if you completely deny or leave out the spirituality of the entire Bible, you will still have an accurate book written over hundreds of years. This merits a bit more respect than " Well, I can write one too and believe it is holy".

I also find it a bit too convenient that you did not address any other part of my argument, the parts that pointed out the flaws in your logic.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 10:20 am
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Point acknowledged. Well, I must say, I'm impressed with your maturity. You handled that very well. What's your stance on this whole issue?

Thank you, I believe in creationism.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 10:21 am
Quoting Caleb R
I did not write this book.

Here is a thought for you, Deus, the Bible is incredibly historically accurate. Even if you completely deny or leave out the spirituality of the entire Bible, you will still have an accurate book written over hundreds of years. This merits a bit more respect than " Well, I can write one too and believe it is holy".

I also find it a bit too convenient that you did not address any other part of my argument, the parts that pointed out the flaws in your logic.

How do you know history is true?
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 11:12 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
How do you know history is true?

Come on man, until you answer to your logical fallacies, do not expect anyone to answer your questions.


Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 11:16 am
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And risk it being false? No thanks

You risk it being false no matter what you believe. This is a fact that you can't deny. So why, then, do you pick the path which gives you no hope and no way to salvation?
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 11:47 am
Quoting Caleb R
Come on man, until you answer to your logical fallacies, do not expect anyone to answer your questions.


I understand my logic is false. It is even more false than yours. The difference is I do not rely on it to describe the universe and that it defines your logic.


You see, the fact that only one of infinite things is true does not mean there is a low chance for it existing, if it already exists. So the self-contradiction self-contradicts itself and you get a true statement. Which is true only as long as you do not know what is true. Which you never do. It is an infinite logic combo.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 12:17 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
You risk it being false no matter what you believe. This is a fact that you can't deny. So why, then, do you pick the path which gives you no hope and no way to salvation?

Those who expect betrayal at every turn are seldom dissapointed.
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| September 15, 2013, 12:19 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Those who expect betrayal at every turn are seldom dissapointed.

Yet they risk accusing all of being the betrayer and have no companions in the end. Sounds like a great life to live...
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 12:28 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I understand my logic is false. It is even more false than yours. The difference is I do not rely on it to describe the universe and that it defines your logic.


You see, the fact that only one of infinite things is true does not mean there is a low chance for it existing, if it already exists. So the self-contradiction self-contradicts itself and you get a true statement. Which is true only as long as you do not know what is true. Which you never do. It is an infinite logic combo.

It's funny because that second paragraph made almost no sense.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 12:29 pm
Quoting Caleb R
Yet they risk accusing all of being the betrayer and have no companions in the end. Sounds like a great life to live...

Nah, they just have to pay 3UU during their next upkeep. And jokes aside, what I meant was that if you have no expectations, you lose nothing. If you expect paradise... Boohoo.

Quoting Caleb R
It's funny because that second paragraph made almost no sense.

It makes no sense if you do not attempt to understand the omnipotence paradox.

Let me at least clarify that "ultimate entity's unsureness of ultimacy".

Imagine you are that ultimate entity.
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
But god is ultimate!

I am talking about a theoretical possibility.
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
No!

Yes.
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
I will never surrender. But I will read and dismiss what you are going to write.

O.K., let us continiue. So you are the ultimate being. How do you know you are ultimate?
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
Easy. God is all-knowing.

So how would you know what you know is really everything?
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
I thought it was pretty obvious that if he knows everything, he would also know that what he knows is everything.

Well, how do you know that the fact that what you know is everything? What if you were given immasurable power to do anything except know in any way that you are not ultimate and/or do anything about it?
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
Because god IS ultimate.

That was not even an argument, that was only a contradiction!
Quoting Caleb R's thoughts
No it was not!

Yes it was!

...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 12:42 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus

For one, please do not ever portray me as a clone kiddie equivalent of a debater. Even you know that I am a good debater. Also, do not think for me. I think for me, and I will answer questions for myself, I do not need you to do this.

Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Imagine you are that ultimate entity.

Okay. Done, I see no reason as to why this would be against my religious beliefs.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So you are the ultimate being. How do you know you are ultimate?

Why do I have to know this?
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So how would you know what you know is really everything?

Who says that I would?
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
What if you were given immasurable power to do anything except know in any way that you are not ultimate and/or do anything about it?

Who is giving me this power if I am ultimate like you said I should imagine?

Oh, and I can't watch the video, it's blocked where I live =(

Also, how is this relevant to anything being discussed?
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 12:56 pm
Quoting Caleb R

Also, how is this relevant to anything being discussed?

What I was saying is that exactly one thing is true. But... Infinite things could be true. But... We do not know which of them is actually true, because infinite different scenarios include us being blinded from the truth (while infinite others still let us see how universe works, that is just how infinity does things). Also... If there is an "ultimate" being, it is just as unknowing as we are.

And if translated into numbers, we have a mathematical statistical probability of being wrong about anything. That probability is 100%.
More precisely it is 99.999...999% chance, but that is like 1/3 being 0.333...333 and times 3 it would be then 0.999...999, but it is really 1 bcause that is just how it works.

What excludes this thought experiment from this is the fact that you do not believe it is true. It is false, because one thing definetely is true, even if that means that multiple ultimacies are true (because that is still one concept). The fact that there is a grand truth, even if impossible to determine, makes the argument of 100% incorrectness useless.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 1:08 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
You risk it being false no matter what you believe. This is a fact that you can't deny. So why, then, do you pick the path which gives you no hope and no way to salvation?

Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
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| September 15, 2013, 3:27 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
So do you consider Catholicism and Christianity similar? Just wondering.
What kinds of opportunities would be closed?Stuff that would be a foolish to do or goes against morals.
Since God is the Creator of the universe, true freedom can only be had in Him.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 3:56 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
So do you consider Catholicism and Christianity similar? Just wondering.
What kinds of opportunities would be closed?Stuff that would be a foolish to do or goes against morals.
Since God is the Creator of the universe, true freedom can only be had in Him.

Catholicism is a form of Christianity. And see, why is it that "true freedom" can only be found through your god? What about other gods?
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 3:59 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Catholicism is a form of Christianity. And see, why is it that "true freedom" can only be found through your god? What about other gods?
No, not really. Catholicism started as Christianity, but then they started taking ideas from eastern, and other pagan religions and mixing it into their doctrine. The priests also added a number of false teachings for their own gain and sometimes alter their views to fit the political environment (Indulgences for one). Very different from Christianity.
Because only one God can be real, and if that is the God of the Bible as I believe then all other gods are false and useless.
Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 4:08 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
You must be deaf if that's what you hear. No one ever suggested that people cannot take other paths, only that those paths don't lead in the right direction. You are perfectly free to go down the wrong road if you like. I, or do any other good Christian, have no intention of taking away anyone's opportunities or freedoms.
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| September 15, 2013, 8:13 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
And if translated into numbers, we have a mathematical statistical probability of being wrong about anything. That probability is 100%.
More precisely it is 99.999...999% chance, but that is like 1/3 being 0.333...333 and times 3 it would be then 0.999...999, but it is really 1 bcause that is just how it works.
Probabilities cannot prove something true. If something has a probability of 0%, that just means it is a set of measure 0, not that it doesn't exist or that it can't happen. For example, the probability that 2 is rational is 0, but 2 is rational anyway.

By the way (this is just a technical issue), point nine repeating is exactly the same as one, so 99.999...% is no more precise than 100%.

Permalink
| September 15, 2013, 8:27 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
You must be deaf if that's what you hear. No one ever suggested that people cannot take other paths, only that those paths don't lead in the right direction. You are perfectly free to go down the wrong road if you like. I, or do any other good Christian, have no intention of taking away anyone's opportunities or freedoms.

But you do. Even by calling it "the wrong road" you are belittling the beliefs of others and making the unproven and outrageously self-righteous claim that you're the only ones with a "real" god
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 2:33 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
But you do. Even by calling it "the wrong road" you are belittling the beliefs of others and making the unproven and outrageously self-righteous claim that you're the only ones with a "real" god
Only one road can be right, I explained why before, the rest must be wrong. Calling them wrong is not belittling. In fact it is loving, since doing so is the only way to show their need to turn to the truth that they've rejected.
Christianity is backed up archeology, logic, and science unlike all other religions. Obviously it is NOT an "unproven and outrageously self-righteous claim" as you have outrageously claimed.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 7:06 am
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"

Honestly, I know exactly where you are coming from with this point. The only reason I believe in creationism is because it is the most logical to me. I personally wish at times it wasn't true, but it just makes so much more sense than any other theory.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 7:21 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
But you do. Even by calling it "the wrong road" you are belittling the beliefs of others and making the unproven and outrageously self-righteous claim that you're the only ones with a "real" god
Only one road can be right, I explained why before, the rest must be wrong. Calling them wrong is not belittling. In fact it is loving, since doing so is the only way to show their need to turn to the truth that they've rejected.
Christianity is backed up archeology, logic, and science unlike all other religions. Obviously it is NOT an "unproven and outrageously self-righteous claim" as you have outrageously claimed.

At this point, I'd compare Christians to a particular dictator, but I don't want to cause undue alarm by saying something that could be taken as offensive and that will stay on the internet until the end of time, or the destruction of the internet, whichever happens soonest.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 3:18 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
At this point, I'd compare Christians to a particular dictator, but I don't want to cause undue alarm by saying something that could be taken as offensive and that will stay on the internet until the end of time, or the destruction of the internet, whichever happens soonest.
Think about it, could it work any other way? Do you really believe that following Islam, which says to kill non Muslims, or Christianity, which says to love your neighbor, will get you to the same eternal destination? To say that both of these opposing paths lead to the same God is impossible, they are going in opposite directions.
Let's say two guys in Kansas decide to go to California. One drives west, the other focused on getting to California first decides to go east. Of course, this second man never gets to California despite all of the rituals he performed as he went and preachers he listened to on the radio. This is because "Direction not intention determines destination" and is why there can only be one way the Heaven, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.
Since only one worldview can be true, each must be examined by its truth and merit. This is where Christianity proves true, and is the reason I am a Christian today.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 4:09 pm
There's a great poem by Seamus Heaney called "Limbo" which presents an interesting message on Christianity. It's pretty short, you should read it. Might take a little annotation to get the message though.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 4:12 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Probabilities cannot prove something true.

By the way (this is just a technical issue), point nine repeating is exactly the same as one, so 99.999...% is no more precise than 100%.

First issue: correct. On the other hand, if you can not know what is true, possibility is the only thing you can rely on.

Second issue: I said that too.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 4:48 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Islam says to kill non Muslims

I have read the Koran. You have not.
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| September 16, 2013, 4:50 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Because (and I know what I'm talking about here, I spent half my life as a faithful Catholic) when you say "Path to salvation", I hear "Closure of all doors of opportunity and destruction of freedoms"
So do you consider Catholicism and Christianity similar?

I'm assuming you mean Catholics and Protestants, seeing as Catholics ARE Christians, in fact, the original.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 4:59 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Quoting The Object of Legend
Islam says to kill non Muslims

I have read the Koran. You have not.
A wild assumption.

Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 5:03 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Michael K.
I'm assuming you mean Catholics and Protestants, seeing as Catholics ARE Christians, in fact, the original.
Yes. Did you read the rest of the post?

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| September 16, 2013, 5:04 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
A wild assumption.

No assumption. Either you lied to make a point (doubtedly) or I have evidence you have not read it.
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| September 16, 2013, 5:12 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
No assumption. Either you lied to make a point (doubtedly) or I have evidence you have not read it.
If you have read the qu'ran then you should know that the Moslem god changes his mind.(It even says so) The verses about killing the infidel happen to be the newest.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 5:38 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
No assumption. Either you lied to make a point (doubtedly) or I have evidence you have not read it.
If you have read the qu'ran then you should know that the Moslem god changes his mind.(It even says so) The verses about killing the infidel happen to be the newest.

It is the same god, you know. And I think you are taking things a bit out of context here.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 5:46 pm
Interesting factoid about Christianity - they consider the Bible to be the word of god, yet relatively recently everyone got together in the Vatican and decided that Limbo no longer exists. And not because god said so, but because some priests made money praying for souls in Limbo.

So...
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| September 16, 2013, 5:49 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
relatively recently everyone got together in the Vatican and decided that Limbo no longer exists

Yeah... To put myself in christian shoes, that is just admitting that the Bible may or may not have been modified/interpreted to manipulate.

And it is not really that Limbo would not exist. It is that their religion teaches taht you are going to have a nice afterlife no matter what you do.
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| September 16, 2013, 5:52 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Interesting factoid about Christianity - they consider the Bible to be the word of god, yet relatively recently everyone got together in the Vatican and decided that Limbo no longer exists.
You're talking about Catholicism, not Christianity as a whole. This post has a little about Catholicism-http://www.mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1235062
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| September 16, 2013, 6:14 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend

This post has a little about Catholicism

It does. But as it turns out, all christian branches made modifications to better suit their environment.


It is completely impossible to determine whether catholicism did more good or bad during history.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:19 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
It is the same god, you know. And I think you are taking things a bit out of context here.
No it isn't, Muhammad made his up in a cave. I don't think so, can you prove me wrong?
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| September 16, 2013, 6:21 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
It is completely impossible to determine whether catholicism did more good or bad during history.
It is not a matter of what they did in history, its that they ignore what the Bible says about a number of things and add whatever they wish.
It's the Christian's job to read the Bible and know God.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:25 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
You're talking about Catholicism, not Christianity as a whole. This post has a little about Catholicism-http://www.mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1235062

True, I guess I supposed that most of the people here are of the Western branch, as opposed to Eastern. Not many Russians on MOCpages.
And as the majority of other Christian sects are branches of Catholicism, I figured generalization was fair.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:26 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
can you prove me wrong?

I did that already, it is just kind of hard to translate something so abstract into your language, so I may have been interpreted loosely.

Also, are you saying that you are automatically right and it is all our job to prove you wrong if we disagree?
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| September 16, 2013, 6:26 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend

It's the Christian's job to read the Bible and know God.

Hardly. A christian's job is to be nice.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 6:27 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
It is not a matter of what they did in history, its that they ignore what the Bible says about a number of things and add whatever they wish.
It's the Christian's job to read the Bible and know God.

But who prints the Bible?
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 6:28 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hardly. A christian's job is to be nice.

The Christian's job is to follow Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. Our religion is based on Christ. He can speak to us, through his word, through other people, or simply through things that happen to us. We want to be "nice", but more than that; caring, just, and wise.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:39 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I did that already, it is just kind of hard to translate something so abstract into your language, so I may have been interpreted loosely.

Also, are you saying that you are automatically right and it is all our job to prove you wrong if we disagree?

We each have our own beliefs, and we like to be acknowledged as right. Christians "know" the truth. Atheists "know" the truth. Muslims "know" the truth, etc. Humans are flawed, so Christians can't be perfect, but we try not to enforce our beliefs on others. So many times I realize I'm trying to say everything, and neglecting God. I hope I don't do that very much as I debate.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:42 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
But who prints the Bible?

In the Bible it says it is "God-breathed" so we believe it. The disciples wrote it, the prophets wrote it, kings wrote it, and I can understand why some people wouldn't believe it. But it is the most historically accurate book, but we've discussed that a lot so let's not return to that.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:43 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
In the Bible it says it is "God-breathed" so we believe it. The disciples wrote it, the prophets wrote it, kings wrote it, and I can understand why some people wouldn't believe it. But it is the most historically accurate book, but we've discussed that a lot so let's not return to that.

And there are historical documents that suport Biblical teachings. You wouldn't believe how many Great Flood writings there are.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:46 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
the Bible is the most historically accurate book

Anyone can talk religiously about historical events. If a biblical city is real, that does not make the bible real.

Not to be too insultive, but that sounds about as legitimate as existance of Godzilla being proven by existance of Tokyo.
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| September 16, 2013, 6:59 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
Atheists "know" the truth

Hmm...
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| September 16, 2013, 6:59 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyone can talk religiously about historical events. If a biblical city is real, that does not make the bible real.

Not to be too insultive, but that sounds about as legitimate as existance of Godzilla being proven by existance of Tokyo.

He is not talking religiously about it at all. He is saying that without the Christian faith, it is the most historically accurate book in the world. And if the historical facts are extrememly accurate, should't the rest of the book be to?
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| September 16, 2013, 7:06 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyone can talk religiously about historical events. If a biblical city is real, that does not make the bible real.

Not to be too insultive, but that sounds about as legitimate as existance of Godzilla being proven by existance of Tokyo.

You are right, I mean about the city analogy. If all historical texts have that same problem; they include events that supposedly took place somewhere on this planet that very definitely exists, then the belief we could place our trust in is Atheism.

Obviously, not everyone is an atheist. Aside from the Bible, Christians believe what they do because they have seen evidence with their own eyes. Example: say I go to a prayer meeting and we pray intensely for someone who is badly sick. Then a couple days later they are healed and the doctors don't know what happened.
Those types of situations happen a lot, and in most of them Christ shows Himself through His healing power.
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| September 16, 2013, 7:13 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
He is not talking religiously about it at all. He is saying that without the Christian faith, it is the most historically accurate book in the world. And if the historical facts are extrememly accurate, should't the rest of the book be to?

You're too right. Zach, thanks for joining this thread, but sadly I have to leave to prepare supper.
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| September 16, 2013, 7:16 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hmm...

Yeah, I'll think about it too. But I have to go and do chores and stuff. I might be back tomorrow. Praying for you- Alex.
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 7:16 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
You're too right. Zach, thanks for joining this thread, but sadly I have to leave to prepare supper.

See ya!!!!! BTW SUPPER=YAY!!!!!
Permalink
| September 16, 2013, 7:18 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hardly. A christian's job is to be nice.

Deus, if you have as a small an understanding of Christianity as this comment indicates, then you really shouldn't participate in this debate.
A Christian's job is to spread the word of Jesus Christ.
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| September 16, 2013, 8:25 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
It is completely impossible to determine whether catholicism did more good or bad during history.
It is not a matter of what they did in history, its that they ignore what the Bible says about a number of things and add whatever they wish.
It's the Christian's job to read the Bible and know God.
I think you're being a little unfair on Catholics. Everyone is subject to misinterpretations of the Bible, and everyone is subject to outside forces.
I don't think that it's our place to judge whether someone is Christian or not. If they say that they are, then accept them as such. If the say they are Christians, but do not act like it, use scripture to show them their flaw.

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| September 16, 2013, 8:25 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
At this point, I'd compare Christians to a particular dictator, but I don't want to cause undue alarm by saying something that could be taken as offensive and that will stay on the internet until the end of time, or the destruction of the internet, whichever happens soonest.
Think about it, could it work any other way? Do you really believe that following Islam, which says to kill non Muslims, or Christianity, which says to love your neighbor, will get you to the same eternal destination? To say that both of these opposing paths lead to the same God is impossible, they are going in opposite directions.
Let's say two guys in Kansas decide to go to California. One drives west, the other focused on getting to California first decides to go east. Of course, this second man never gets to California despite all of the rituals he performed as he went and preachers he listened to on the radio. This is because "Direction not intention determines destination" and is why there can only be one way the Heaven, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.
Since only one worldview can be true, each must be examined by its truth and merit. This is where Christianity proves true, and is the reason I am a Christian today.

Why can only one view be correct?

I think your Kansas to California analogy is a little flawed.

Since you used America for your example, i'm going to use Australia:

Let's say one man, named V (He shall represent the Muslim) is heading from Sydney to Perth

Another, let's call him K (Representing Christianity) decides to go from Sydney to Darwin

Both of them get to their destination

See: Same origin point, different journeys, different destinations. Just because one man got to Darwin and not Perth does not mean that Perth does not exist.

QED
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| September 17, 2013, 5:54 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
See: Same origin point, different journeys, different destinations. Just because one man got to Darwin and not Perth does not mean that Perth does not exist.
Here's the problem with that. Either one of these men went to Heaven and the other to the opposite place, or you're claiming that there are multiple Heavens and thus multiple gods to get to. But this cannot be because the universe can only have one infinite, so one God.
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| September 17, 2013, 6:40 am
 Group admin 
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
It is completely impossible to determine whether catholicism did more good or bad during history.
It is not a matter of what they did in history, its that they ignore what the Bible says about a number of things and add whatever they wish.
It's the Christian's job to read the Bible and know God.

Good thing we Catholics aren't the ones who cherry pick the Bible and remove the inconvenient parts (like the epistle)
Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 7:54 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
See: Same origin point, different journeys, different destinations. Just because one man got to Darwin and not Perth does not mean that Perth does not exist.
Here's the problem with that. Either one of these men went to Heaven and the other to the opposite place, or you're claiming that there are multiple Heavens and thus multiple gods to get to. But this cannot be because the universe can only have one infinite, so one God.

Why is it that the universe (which is a broad term) can only have one or any infinites and what determines such?
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| September 17, 2013, 12:57 pm
Quoting Josh B.
Why is it that the universe (which is a broad term) can only have one or any infinites and what determines such?

Let me answer with a question. Why is it that the Big Bang went bang? God would still have to exist. If there is a God (which there is) then why would he lie in saying there is one God. Every theory for the world ultimately leads to a god.
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| September 17, 2013, 2:45 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
See: Same origin point, different journeys, different destinations. Just because one man got to Darwin and not Perth does not mean that Perth does not exist.
Here's the problem with that. Either one of these men went to Heaven and the other to the opposite place, or you're claiming that there are multiple Heavens and thus multiple gods to get to. But this cannot be because the universe can only have one infinite, so one God.

You have no way to definitively prove that you're the only one who is right. The universe is stupendously big. Even when you think you realize how big it is, it's bigger. With that in mind, how is it that, if it can contain a god (the belief of most religions), then why does it have to contain only one, or only those that belong to one religion.

And I guess this is the big question:
How do you know that you are right? What if Christianity isn't the way? What if it's the god of another religion that is the only one that exists (if we stick to your "only-one-god" argument)?
How would that make you feel?

Or what if I'm right, and there are no gods?

Just the cold and empty expanse of the dark eternity, stretching on until the end of time

Why are you right?
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| September 17, 2013, 3:13 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
Let me answer with a question. Why is it that the Big Bang went bang? God would still have to exist. If there is a God (which there is) then why would he lie in saying there is one God. Every theory for the world ultimately leads to a god.

No, they don't. The Big Bang could have been another collapsing universe (there is a theory, I think it's called the closed universe theory, the states that the universe is expanding, will reach a point where it stops expanding, and then collapse into one tiny point, which will then, at the point when the whole universe has collapsed into it, expand violently (Big Bang), and the cycle begins again). And you have to realise that god/gods/religion is, in the main, just another scientific theory, albeit an extremely outlandish one. Religion is just another way to explain away things we don't understand.

Personally, as long as the world keeps turning and the sun doesn't go supernova in my lifetime, I don't care how the universe came to be. Humanity is such a tiny, insignificant part of the universe that it doesn't matter what we think, universally speaking.

We think our little struggles and worries matter but they don't. We argue over what to do about Syria, while, across the gulfs of space, galaxies vast and ancient consume one another. Does it really matter is a few billion humans die? Not really.

I know that sounds pessimistic, but their you go.
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| September 17, 2013, 3:19 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
The Big Bang could have been another collapsing universe (there is a theory, I think it's called the closed universe theory, the states that the universe is expanding, will reach a point where it stops expanding, and then collapse into one tiny point, which will then, at the point when the whole universe has collapsed into it, expand violently (Big Bang), and the cycle begins again). And you have to realise that god/gods/religion is, in the main, just another scientific theory, albeit an extremely outlandish one. Religion is just another way to explain away things we don't understand.

So you are saying Evolution isn't a religion?
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| September 17, 2013, 3:25 pm
Okay, the simplest of life forms is still hard for humans to comprehend. Simple bacteria, as simple as it gets, is so complex. Then the most complex is way beyond human knowledge. The processes that occur in the world are partly understood, but the vast majority of our own planet is undiscovered. And all that, and then the universe, came from a big bang? With no forethought? Just chemicals expanding and creating the UNIVERSE? It is not logical to believe that!
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| September 17, 2013, 3:35 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
So you are saying Evolution isn't a religion?

I'm saying it's the less outlandish of two theories. Yes, if you want to, you could class it as a religion. I don't want to, but you could. It has slightly more scientific basis than the god theory, but it's not wholly proven.

I do find it astonishing though, that despite the skeletons, despite the carbon dating, despite the archaeological evidence that I could provide links to if I wasn't about to go and eat breakfast, despite the confirmation of adaptation, despite the quite plausible arguments made by many scientists that prove evolution, despite so much evidence, you people still say it's wrong because of belief.
If the force of belief alone can create something, than I type in vain.
Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 3:35 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I'm saying it's the less outlandish of two theories. Yes, if you want to, you could class it as a religion. I don't want to, but you could. It has slightly more scientific basis than the god theory, but it's not wholly proven.

I do find it astonishing though, that despite the skeletons, despite the carbon dating, despite the archaeological evidence that I could provide links to if I wasn't about to go and eat breakfast, despite the confirmation of adaptation, despite the quite plausible arguments made by many scientists that prove evolution, despite so much evidence, you people still say it's wrong because of belief.
If the force of belief alone can create something, than I type in vain.

Skeletons: Merely extinct apes. There have been many skeletons that were just human jaws and ape skulls or vice-versa.
Carbon Dating: Extremely flawed.
Archeological Evedince: Drawings on a rock wall. Really?
Adaptation: You do not understand evolution. Adaptation is a animal changing to fit its suroundings. I actually believe that on creation day there was only on breed of bear. But the bears would roam and adapt to there suroundings. Lets say Polar bear family moved to live in the northern united states. Well after a few generations, the Polar bears would change and begin to adapt to there suroundings. Evolution depends on mutation. Much different from adaptation.
Arguements that prove Evolution: You must know that science cannot prove anything. Anything saying that science can prove anything is false.
Evidence: What evidence?
Zach
Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 3:54 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
Skeletons: Merely extinct apes. There have been many skeletons that were just human jaws and ape skulls or vice-versa.
Carbon Dating: Extremely flawed.
Archeological Evedince: Drawings on a rock wall. Really?
Adaptation: You do not understand evolution. Adaptation is a animal changing to fit its suroundings. I actually believe that on creation day there was only on breed of bear. But the bears would roam and adapt to there suroundings. Lets say Polar bear family moved to live in the northern united states. Well after a few generations, the Polar bears would change and begin to adapt to there suroundings. Evolution depends on mutation. Much different from adaptation.
Arguements that prove Evolution: You must know that science cannot prove anything. Anything saying that science can prove anything is false.
Evidence: What evidence?
Zach

I do understand evolution, please do not tell me what I do and do not know. Adaptation is what got Darwin thinking about evolution. He realised that a particular breed of birds was identical in every way save for their beaks, which were different, as these two types of the sa ebird inhabited different islands, and ate different foods. They had changed to suit their environment. Anyway, I clearly can't argue with you, becasue you won't see my point of view.
There
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| September 17, 2013, 4:06 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And I guess this is the big question:
How do you know that you are right? What if Christianity isn't the way? What if it's the god of another religion that is the only one that exists (if we stick to your "only-one-god" argument)?
How would that make you feel?
Or what if I'm right, and there are no gods?
Just the cold and empty expanse of the dark eternity, stretching on until the end of time

Why are you right?
Very good question, I respect your points. I will try to explain as best I can.

I have already told you that Christianity is the most scientifically and historically accurate religion, that it agrees with logical reasoning, but it also has the greatest effect on a person's life. With most religions people perform rituals and acts out of tradition or cultural pressure, but in Biblical Christianity you are set free and the void in your heart is filled.

I have a relationship with God, I can't prove it tangibly, but for me it's the greatest evidence of the truth of Christianity.
I still mess up (All the time) but I'm not a slave to sin I can go to God and be forgiven and move on. I sense God's presence and peace in my life, feel His love and try to do my best to love Him back. It might sound strange or fantastic, but, above all the evidence, that's how I know I'm right.

Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 5:07 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And I guess this is the big question:
How do you know that you are right? What if Christianity isn't the way? What if it's the god of another religion that is the only one that exists (if we stick to your "only-one-god" argument)?
How would that make you feel?
Or what if I'm right, and there are no gods?
Just the cold and empty expanse of the dark eternity, stretching on until the end of time

Why are you right?
Very good question, I respect your points. I will try to explain as best I can.

I have already told you that Christianity is the most scientifically and historically accurate religion, that it agrees with logical reasoning, but it also has the greatest effect on a person's life. With most religions people perform rituals and acts out of tradition or cultural pressure, but in Biblical Christianity you are set free and the void in your heart is filled.

I have a relationship with God, I can't prove it tangibly, but for me it's the greatest evidence of the truth of Christianity.
I still mess up (All the time) but I'm not a slave to sin I can go to God and be forgiven and move on. I sense God's presence and peace in my life, feel His love and try to do my best to love Him back. It might sound strange or fantastic, but, above all the evidence, that's how I know I'm right.

Wonderfully said.
Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 5:22 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
Wonderfully said.
Thanks.

Permalink
| September 17, 2013, 5:31 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
And I guess this is the big question:
How do you know that you are right? What if Christianity isn't the way? What if it's the god of another religion that is the only one that exists (if we stick to your "only-one-god" argument)?
How would that make you feel?
Or what if I'm right, and there are no gods?
Just the cold and empty expanse of the dark eternity, stretching on until the end of time

Why are you right?
Very good question, I respect your points. I will try to explain as best I can.

I have already told you that Christianity is the most scientifically and historically accurate religion, that it agrees with logical reasoning, but it also has the greatest effect on a person's life. With most religions people perform rituals and acts out of tradition or cultural pressure, but in Biblical Christianity you are set free and the void in your heart is filled.

I have a relationship with God, I can't prove it tangibly, but for me it's the greatest evidence of the truth of Christianity.
I still mess up (All the time) but I'm not a slave to sin I can go to God and be forgiven and move on. I sense God's presence and peace in my life, feel His love and try to do my best to love Him back. It might sound strange or fantastic, but, above all the evidence, that's how I know I'm right.

Okay, that makes sense. I guess this is why a debate like this can never truly be won by either side. Unless one side totally converts the other to their belief system, no one wins.
Still, it's been fun.
Permalink
| September 18, 2013, 3:27 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, that makes sense. I guess this is why a debate like this can never truly be won by either side. Unless one side totally converts the other to their belief system, no one wins.
Still, it's been fun.
It has been, but it doesn't have to be for nothing. I've learned a lot from you.
If you're right you will die no matter what you believe, if I'm right there is eternity in God's presence on the line. Don't you think it's worth looking into?
Don't take what your teacher says as fact, test it! Compare worldviews and see what stands up under pressure. There have been countless stories of atheist scientists doing exactly that and realizing the truth of Christianity. What did they find that made them change their minds? Don't you think it's worth finding out?
Permalink
| September 18, 2013, 5:10 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Okay, that makes sense. I guess this is why a debate like this can never truly be won by either side. Unless one side totally converts the other to their belief system, no one wins.
Still, it's been fun.
It has been, but it doesn't have to be for nothing. I've learned a lot from you.
If you're right you will die no matter what you believe, if I'm right there is eternity in God's presence on the line. Don't you think it's worth looking into?
Don't take what your teacher says as fact, test it! Compare worldviews and see what stands up under pressure. There have been countless stories of atheist scientists doing exactly that and realizing the truth of Christianity. What did they find that made them change their minds? Don't you think it's worth finding out?

Maybe. But see, if you're right, then I put a whole lot of effort into believing, and still have a chance of going to h3ll. If I keep doing what I'm doing, I have a fun life and go to h3ll anyway. If I'm right, I have a fun life and then i die.

Still, I'm glad we've been able to have a serious and civilised debate about this, rather than just rants and tangents. I doubt either of us is willing to truly concede the other is right, but it's still been a great debate.
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 4:44 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
Skeletons: Merely extinct apes. There have been many skeletons that were just human jaws and ape skulls or vice-versa.
Carbon Dating: Extremely flawed.
Archeological Evedince: Drawings on a rock wall. Really?
Adaptation: You do not understand evolution. Adaptation is a animal changing to fit its suroundings. I actually believe that on creation day there was only on breed of bear. But the bears would roam and adapt to there suroundings. Lets say Polar bear family moved to live in the northern united states. Well after a few generations, the Polar bears would change and begin to adapt to there suroundings. Evolution depends on mutation. Much different from adaptation.
Arguements that prove Evolution: You must know that science cannot prove anything. Anything saying that science can prove anything is false.
Evidence: What evidence?
Zach

Those hybrid skeletons were hoaxes, like Piltdown man. As for your "extinct ape" hypothesis, why do the skeletons of "extinct apes" predate those of modern humans if they're not our predecessors?

Carbon dating isn't always completely accurate, but it gives a good estimation. Also, geological depth, tools/materials found, and other indicators can aid in the dating process.

Archeological Evidence: Drawings, tools, ancient texts, dated bones, ancient shelters. And more.

Adaptation you say? In your example bears adapt to a cold climate by finding shelter, eating more, hibernating, etc. Bears then evolve into polar bears as their body changes to make the adaptations normalcy.
Adaptation is a change in behaviour, evolution is a change in genetics.

Well of course science can't prove anything. Then again, neither can speculation and faith. And science can actually be disproved if an incongruous result challenges a theory, whereas faith ignores such facts. Hence, a longstanding theory is more reliable than a hearty thought.

Evidence in fossil record, the cod example given earlier, and much more.

Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 6:17 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Those hybrid skeletons were hoaxes, like Piltdown man. As for your "extinct ape" hypothesis, why do the skeletons of "extinct apes" predate those of modern humans if they're not our predecessors?

Carbon dating isn't always completely accurate, but it gives a good estimation. Also, geological depth, tools/materials found, and other indicators can aid in the dating process.

Archeological Evidence: Drawings, tools, ancient texts, dated bones, ancient shelters. And more.

Adaptation you say? In your example bears adapt to a cold climate by finding shelter, eating more, hibernating, etc. Bears then evolve into polar bears as their body changes to make the adaptations normalcy.
Adaptation is a change in behaviour, evolution is a change in genetics.

Well of course science can't prove anything. Then again, neither can speculation and faith. And science can actually be disproved if an incongruous result challenges a theory, whereas faith ignores such facts. Hence, a longstanding theory is more reliable than a hearty thought.

Evidence in fossil record, the cod example given earlier, and much more.

Interesting points.

1. How do you know they outdate us? Carbon dating.

2. Carbon dating is an interesting idea. In a creatures life the absorb a chemicle (forgot which one) and when they die it is released as Carbon-14. So all we need to do is measure the amount of C-14 by the amount of chemicle they absorbed and you get how many years ago it died, sounds easy right? Well if it is so easy than how much of that chemicle did the animal absorb when it was alive? Not that easy now huh?

3. All of that stuff was dated by Carbon dating, get the picture? All of that stuff was made and drawn by us humans in the past 6000 years.

4. That was not evolution. Evolution is one animal turning into an entirly different animal. Despite there difference's bears are still bears.

5. So you are saying Evolution isn't a hearty thought? And how is the idea of Evolution not a speculation? How is it we know that there was a big bang?

Had fun!
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 6:34 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Maybe. But see, if you're right, then I put a whole lot of effort into believing, and still have a chance of going to h3ll. If I keep doing what I'm doing, I have a fun life and go to h3ll anyway. If I'm right, I have a fun life and then i die.

Still, I'm glad we've been able to have a serious and civilised debate about this, rather than just rants and tangents. I doubt either of us is willing to truly concede the other is right, but it's still been a great debate.
God created fun you know, and boy does He do it right!
You might think certain ungodly pleasures are 'fun', but they have consequences, and it's going to stop being 'fun' once the pain starts.
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 7:35 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
God created fun you know, and boy does He do it right!
You might think certain ungodly pleasures are 'fun', but they have consequences, and it's going to stop being 'fun' once the pain starts.

Those sound like some legit heavy metal lyrics. I can dig it.

Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 8:01 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Maybe. But see, if you're right, then I put a whole lot of effort into believing, and still have a chance of going to h3ll. If I keep doing what I'm doing, I have a fun life and go to h3ll anyway. If I'm right, I have a fun life and then i die.

Still, I'm glad we've been able to have a serious and civilised debate about this, rather than just rants and tangents. I doubt either of us is willing to truly concede the other is right, but it's still been a great debate.
God created fun you know, and boy does He do it right!
You might think certain ungodly pleasures are 'fun', but they have consequences, and it's going to stop being 'fun' once the pain starts.

Yeah, you're right. Every action, good and bad, has its consequence.
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 8:07 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
Interesting points.

1. How do you know they outdate us? Carbon dating.

2. Carbon dating is an interesting idea. In a creatures life the absorb a chemicle (forgot which one) and when they die it is released as Carbon-14. So all we need to do is measure the amount of C-14 by the amount of chemicle they absorbed and you get how many years ago it died, sounds easy right? Well if it is so easy than how much of that chemicle did the animal absorb when it was alive? Not that easy now huh?

3. All of that stuff was dated by Carbon dating, get the picture? All of that stuff was made and drawn by us humans in the past 6000 years.

4. That was not evolution. Evolution is one animal turning into an entirly different animal. Despite there difference's bears are still bears.

5. So you are saying Evolution isn't a hearty thought? And how is the idea of Evolution not a speculation? How is it we know that there was a big bang?

Had fun!

Indeed.

1. Carbon dating isn't the only method of determining age. The geological depth at which a fossil is found also permits us to judge age, as sediment accumulates and forms new rock layers.

2. Actually, that's not entirely true. Carbon is primarily found as C-12, an element with 6 protons and 6 neutrons. However, there are other isotopes (atoms of the element with a different number of neutrons) of carbon. C-14 is a radioactive element which is found is lesser quantities, but is still present across the earth, and there's a fairly constant ratio of C-14 to C-12. Living creatures absorb C-14 in carbon-dioxide as they breath, and thus their C-12 to C-14 ratio is the same as the atmosphere's. However, when they die, they stop breathing and thus stop absorbing carbon. The relatively stable C-12 stays in the corpse, but the radioactive C-14 decays into C-12 relatively quickly. Hence, the ratio of C-12 to C-14 changes, and scientists can use a mass-spectrometer to determine the ratio of C-12 to C-14 and thus the age of the sample. It has nothing to do with how much carbon is absorbed while alive, as the ratio does not change until death.

3. True enough.

4. Evolution is not one animal turning into a completely different animal - it is simply a natural alteration to a creatures genetic structure, caused by adaptation to their environment.

5. Of course it's speculation. However, it's speculation that hasn't yet been disproved, despite many people's attempts to do so. And honestly, while the Big Bang theory provides a great explanation for the expansion of the universe, it has yet to explain the creation of said universe in the first place. But I never mentioned universal creation anyways. And if we want to go in that vein, where did God come from if he created the universe?
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 9:28 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
And if we want to go in that vein, where did God come from if he created the universe?

By definition, God has no origin.
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 11:38 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
By definition, God has no origin.

Perfect answer man!
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 11:47 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Indeed.

1. Carbon dating isn't the only method of determining age. The geological depth at which a fossil is found also permits us to judge age, as sediment accumulates and forms new rock layers.


Yes, but the geological depth cannot always be trusted either. Sediment can accumulate very slowly or very quickly depending upon the conditions. Remember Mt. St. Helens? An entire canyon formed overnight with many, many strata. If you had no clue what happened, you might assume that it took millions of years to form. Just an example...

I have to hit the sack. Looking forward to debating again tomorrow!
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 11:54 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
By definition, God has no origin.

A thing with no origin is a thing that is nonexistant
Permalink
| September 19, 2013, 11:55 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
A thing with no origin is a thing that is nonexistant

God is. He was, He is, He always will be. If you want to argue about His existence, well, we already covered that.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 1:51 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
A thing with no origin is a thing that is nonexistant

Then everything and anything is nonexistent. If you trace something back, you will always conclude that there was no feasible origin. Whatever theory you choose, you shall never be able to conclude the initial point of origin, as our minds can't grasp such a thing. There is and shall always be something before and after.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 2:02 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Indeed.

1. Carbon dating isn't the only method of determining age. The geological depth at which a fossil is found also permits us to judge age, as sediment accumulates and forms new rock layers.

2. Actually, that's not entirely true. Carbon is primarily found as C-12, an element with 6 protons and 6 neutrons. However, there are other isotopes (atoms of the element with a different number of neutrons) of carbon. C-14 is a radioactive element which is found is lesser quantities, but is still present across the earth, and there's a fairly constant ratio of C-14 to C-12. Living creatures absorb C-14 in carbon-dioxide as they breath, and thus their C-12 to C-14 ratio is the same as the atmosphere's. However, when they die, they stop breathing and thus stop absorbing carbon. The relatively stable C-12 stays in the corpse, but the radioactive C-14 decays into C-12 relatively quickly. Hence, the ratio of C-12 to C-14 changes, and scientists can use a mass-spectrometer to determine the ratio of C-12 to C-14 and thus the age of the sample. It has nothing to do with how much carbon is absorbed while alive, as the ratio does not change until death.

3. True enough.

4. Evolution is not one animal turning into a completely different animal - it is simply a natural alteration to a creatures genetic structure, caused by adaptation to their environment.

5. Of course it's speculation. However, it's speculation that hasn't yet been disproved, despite many people's attempts to do so. And honestly, while the Big Bang theory provides a great explanation for the expansion of the universe, it has yet to explain the creation of said universe in the first place. But I never mentioned universal creation anyways. And if we want to go in that vein, where did God come from if he created the universe?

1. Interesting, those layers point to sever flooding...

2. This is true. However. Evolution says that the atmosphere has changed over the 1.6 billion years. So evolutionists merely change the numbers to fit there time scale. So a million years could easily be a couple thousand years. Get my point.

3. Heh.

4. Then why is evolution based off of mutations?

5. So you are saying that God has been proven nonexistent?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 2:37 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
By definition, God has no origin.

I really love these debates.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:26 pm
Quoting Mark McPeek

Yes, but the geological depth cannot always be trusted either. Sediment can accumulate very slowly or very quickly depending upon the conditions. Remember Mt. St. Helens? An entire canyon formed overnight with many, many strata. If you had no clue what happened, you might assume that it took millions of years to form. Just an example...

I have to hit the sack. Looking forward to debating again tomorrow!

True enough, though a combination of multiple methods will either yield a reliable result, or show so much variation that it's obvious that something (like a volcano) changed the landscape. And if a scientist can't support the estimated age of their sample with facts, it's not a fact.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:29 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I really love these debates.

We all do :D
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:34 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
True enough, though a combination of multiple methods will either yield a reliable result, or show so much variation that it's obvious that something (like a volcano) changed the landscape. And if a scientist can't support the estimated age of their sample with facts, it's not a fact.

Agreed.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:38 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I really love these debates.

Yeah, no one ever "wins." I won't change my beliefs, same as everyone else. I must say that it's fun debating with you. Is there a subject that you would be interested in debating with me?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:41 pm
*enters group*
I'm BACK!
*sees religion*
*rolls eyes*
Has this ended badly yet? If not, where has it gone so far?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:43 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
1. Interesting, those layers point to sever flooding...

2. This is true. However. Evolution says that the atmosphere has changed over the 1.6 billion years. So evolutionists merely change the numbers to fit there time scale. So a million years could easily be a couple thousand years. Get my point.

3. Heh.

4. Then why is evolution based off of mutations?

5. So you are saying that God has been proven nonexistent?

1. There was a flood. It could easily refer to a higher than usual inundation of the Euphrates or Tigris river, or even the Nile. There was never a flood that covered the entire earth in water though, and Noah's ark could not possibly have saved two of every creature in existence. Ignoring the challenge of finding all those plants and animals, keeping them all alive long enough to reproduce, and not having any die out, he simply wouldn't have had enough wood. Or, if he did, we would have found the remains of a colossal vessel.

2. Yeah, the atmosphere can change. However, do to the vast size and self repairing nature of Earth's ecosystem, it's unlikely that the carbon content changed enough to alter readings. So, 4 million might be 3.97 million, or 60000 might be 60400. Negligible in this context.

4. Mutation is merely a change in genetic structure, brought upon by the environment.

5. No, but neither is there an substantive evidence that he exists. It is such an abstract concept that you can do nothing with it.
All religions are - so why is Christianity right? Can you disprove their faith? Can you prove your own? Of course not.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:43 pm
Quoting Mark McPeek
Yeah, no one ever "wins." I won't change my beliefs, same as everyone else. I must say that it's fun debating with you. Is there a subject that you would be interested in debating with me?

I dunno, this one's really my strong suit lately... I'll think about it. You?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:44 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Zach Eli "Sierra" Sykes
*enters group*
I'm BACK!
*sees religion*
*rolls eyes*
Has this ended badly yet? If not, where has it gone so far?

Pull up a chair; its fun to watch :-)

I never really intended the group to go to religion, but actually, the debaters here seem to be well educated, so.

Anyways, I'm back on the sidelines now :-)
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:46 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
the debaters here seem to be well educated, so.

I'm the only one who knows what carbon-dating is though... ;)
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:47 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Quoting Achintya Prasad
the debaters here seem to be well educated, so.

I'm the only one who knows what carbon-dating is though... ;)

Well. In their own respective fields :-)
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:48 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Well. In their own respective fields :-)

Bible thumping...
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:49 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Quoting Achintya Prasad
the debaters here seem to be well educated, so.

I'm the only one who knows what carbon-dating is though... ;)

Ahem!
WRONG!!!!
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:56 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Bible thumping...

Yeah, yeah :-)


Anyways, lets get back to the debate....
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:57 pm
Quoting Zach Eli "Sierra" Sykes
Ahem!
WRONG!!!!

Well, I guess I did just explain it in relative depth earlier, so some more people might know now. ;)
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:58 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Yeah, yeah :-)


Anyways, lets get back to the debate....

There aren't any people to debate with here. :,(
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 8:59 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
1. There was a flood. It could easily refer to a higher than usual inundation of the Euphrates or Tigris river, or even the Nile. There was never a flood that covered the entire earth in water though, and Noah's ark could not possibly have saved two of every creature in existence. Ignoring the challenge of finding all those plants and animals, keeping them all alive long enough to reproduce, and not having any die out, he simply wouldn't have had enough wood. Or, if he did, we would have found the remains of a colossal vessel.

2. Yeah, the atmosphere can change. However, do to the vast size and self repairing nature of Earth's ecosystem, it's unlikely that the carbon content changed enough to alter readings. So, 4 million might be 3.97 million, or 60000 might be 60400. Negligible in this context.

4. Mutation is merely a change in genetic structure, brought upon by the environment.

5. No, but neither is there an substantive evidence that he exists. It is such an abstract concept that you can do nothing with it.
All religions are - so why is Christianity right? Can you disprove their faith? Can you prove your own? Of course not.

1. To answer you here. What do you think of the collosall vessel on top of MT. Arab. And how would you know there was not a lot of wood before the flood?

2. Interesting point...

3. What happened to three?

4. ...but it is contradictory to this statement. For mutations to occur you would need to change the enviroment, thus changing the atmosphere and very possibly changing the amount of C-14 and C-12.

5. You are right. Science cannot prove anything. But there any more substantive proof for evolution?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:02 pm
Is this debate kind of coming to an end? Undecided, kind of a draw? I think we've debated over many things and more than once on others.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:07 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
There aren't any people to debate with here. :,(

You're right. Should we call it a draw?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:08 pm
A couple of more posts and I leave for supper.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:13 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
A couple of more posts and I leave for supper.

Nice. Food. Just finished mine, and am working on Batman . . . muhwahwa . . .
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:16 pm
Quoting Zach "gothambygaslight" L.
1. To answer you here. What do you think of the collosall vessel on top of MT. Arab. And how would you know there was not a lot of wood before the flood?

2. Interesting point...

3. What happened to three?

4. ...but it is contradictory to this statement. For mutations to occur you would need to change the enviroment, thus changing the atmosphere and very possibly changing the amount of C-14 and C-12.

5. You are right. Science cannot prove anything. But there any more substantive proof for evolution?

1. What vessel? A rumour?
I see more evidence for the Loch Ness Monster. I looked this up, and see little more than vague descriptions, multiple hoaxes, and the like.

2. Thank you.

3. :)

4. No, I was referring to changes in the environment on a small scale (erosion, seismic activity, forests growing), how the creature survives (humans going from eating fruits to eating meats as well) and how their predators adapt to hunt them. Plus migrations.

5. Well, there is fossil record and the forced evolution of species. (Like my lovely cod example.)
I've already defended the fossil record, and the fact that the change in cod is in fact evolution. (And you say, Forced Evolution, caused by humans!) But we are merely a prevalent environmental factor, with the ability to accelerate such evolution. We did not create the capacity for it, we merely create a need for adaptation and evolution which other environmental factors (mentioned above) can do as well.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:21 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
You're right. Should we call it a draw?

Never. :P
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:27 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Never. :P

Nice. That being said . . . What now?
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 9:32 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
I dunno, this one's really my strong suit lately... I'll think about it. You?

I guess I'll stick around and see what happens. I find it hard to keep up with school and all. It's really picking up...

Oh, I do know what Carbon dating is. Even though I don't totally agree with it, I'll admit it's better than radioactive dating.
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 10:21 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Never. :P

I like it man!
Permalink
| September 20, 2013, 10:28 pm
Let's look at the hypothesis that God exists kind of like a scientific hypothesis. What predictions does the God Hypothesis make? Are they satisfied?

Prediction 1: The universe exists. If God exists, he is a creator (see Genesis 1:1) and the universe is his creation.
Prediction 2: The universe is intelligible
(i.e., it makes sense). God would be intelligent, so his creation ought to intelligible.
Prediction 3: There exists something which has no origin, or no cause. According to the God Hypothesis, God would have no origin.

Prediction 1 is obviously satisfied (No Deus, I'm not going to debate that). Prediction 2 is not as clear, but still fairly straightforward: We can make sense of the universe (this is called science), and make accurate predictions based on our models. Therefore, the universe can be understood at least to some extent, so it is intelligible. Prediction 3 is much less clear, and much harder to measure. Let's suppose it's false, and there is nothing with no origin. There are two logical ways to satisfy this prediction: 1. That something has originated from nothing, and 2. That there is an infinite chain of things causing each other. The first possibility would be interesting, but the absolute nothingness would have no origin in that scenario, so our prediction is true. However, this scenario is highly illogical and implausible, because void cannot morph itself into something. The second possibility is more logically sound, but it's fair to ask: What is the origin of the infinite chain (taken as a whole)? Let's call the answer X. X itself must either have an origin, and thus be part of the infinite chain, or it must not, and our prediction is satisfied. If X is part of the infinite chain, then the infinite chain is its own origin, which is equivalent to it having no origin: If something causes itself, then it either exists and has no origin, does not exist, or has a second cause outside of itself. Since our assumption was that this infinite chain exists (if it does not, then either the universe doesn't exist, or there is a finite chain), we don't have to consider the possibility that it doesn't. It cannot have a cause outside of itself, because if it did, that cause would be part of the chain by definition. If the chain has no origin, then our prediction is satisfied.

In science, if the predictions of a hypothesis happen, you say that the hypothesis is supported, so I'll say that the God hypothesis is supported.
Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 10:11 am
Quoting Mark McPeek
Oh, I do know what Carbon dating is. Even though I don't totally agree with it, I'll admit it's better than radioactive dating.

It actually is a form of radioactive dating..
What I don't understand is, why do people make such a big deal about carbon dating?
Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 10:14 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It actually is a form of radioactive dating..
What I don't understand is, why do people make such a big deal about carbon dating?
Because carbon dating has been proven inaccurate time and again.
The newer accelerator mass spectrometer method is much more accurate.

Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 1:29 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
You're right. Should we call it a draw?

Calling a draw implies that there could possibly be a 'winner', which is really not the point of a debate. in fact, going into a debate with the expectations of there being a victor really hinders the success of said debate. I believe the point should be to have an open mind and be willing to see all sides. That's the point really, to learn more about a topic by having all points of view revealed to you, so as to know as much as possible about what it is you're discussing and how important it is. It's not about 'winning' or 'losing', it's about learning.
Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 1:47 pm
Quoting Josh B.
Calling a draw implies that there could possibly be a 'winner', which is really not the point of a debate. in fact, going into a debate with the expectations of there being a victor really hinders the success of said debate. I believe the point should be to have an open mind and be willing to see all sides. That's the point really, to learn more about a topic by having all points of view revealed to you, so as to know as much as possible about what it is you're discussing and how important it is. It's not about 'winning' or 'losing', it's about learning.

You're right, learning is so important. I have learned a lot through this debate . . . and from what I've seen, we're not going to have a winner for religion until the day Jesus comes back. It's a back and forth, on-going debate.
Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 1:53 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It actually is a form of radioactive dating..
What I don't understand is, why do people make such a big deal about carbon dating?
Because carbon dating has been proven inaccurate time and again.
I don't know about that. Anyway, it's not really relevant to the creation/evolution debate anyway cause its only accurate up to about 60,000 years.
Quoting The Object of Legend
The newer accelerator mass spectrometer method is much more accurate.
That's just a superior way to separate isotopes, not a new method.

Permalink
| September 21, 2013, 1:53 pm
Are we done here? I think we're done here. For no apparent reason, by the authority I arbitrarily vested in myself, I declare this debate a draw, because neither side was willing to admit the other might me right.
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 4:48 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Are we done here? I think we're done here. For no apparent reason, by the authority I arbitrarily vested in myself, I declare this debate a draw, because neither side was willing to admit the other might me right.

I think a draw might be good. . . with my finite mind I could easily declare you right but by God's heavenly authority I do not.
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 4:51 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
I think a draw might be good. . . with my finite mind I could easily declare you right but by God's heavenly authority I do not.

Yup. I don't like the idea of a god, but I'd accept it in the face of stronger evidence. This was fun. Any other ethical issues you want to debate about?
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 4:52 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Are we done here? I think we're done here. For no apparent reason, by the authority I arbitrarily vested in myself, I declare this debate a draw, because neither side was willing to admit the other might me right.

The point of a debate (or at least, this debate) is not to win, but for each person to learn. Therefore, this debate is not a draw and is not over.

I attempted to approach the question of God's existence semi-scientifically in this (http://mocpages.com/group_conversation.php?id=22580&topicid=91489#comment-1238259 ). That is to say, I had a hypothesis (that God exists), made predictions based on that hypothesis and then examined, by logic, because experiment doesn't work in this, each hypothesis.
(By the way, I kind of hate to advertise my own comment like this, but I think the frivolous comments after it covered it up a bit).
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:19 pm
You know how you guys all talk about how there's so much evidence behind Christianity?
Well, Greek mythology has much the same evidence. A city which is found where Troy should be has much evidence of a siege, and by all reasonable logic is in fact Troy from the Trojan war. Does that prove that Helen of Troy was the daughter of Zeus?
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:26 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You know how you guys all talk about how there's so much evidence behind Christianity?
Well, Greek mythology has much the same evidence. A city which is found where Troy should be has much evidence of a siege, and by all reasonable logic is in fact Troy from the Trojan war. Does that prove that Helen of Troy was the daughter of Zeus?
We are not saying that. Many non-Jewish documents support many of the events in the Bible. (BTW I notice that you are judging me for the M.O. Will my disagreements in this effect my score from you?)
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:30 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You know how you guys all talk about how there's so much evidence behind Christianity?
Well, Greek mythology has much the same evidence. A city which is found where Troy should be has much evidence of a siege, and by all reasonable logic is in fact Troy from the Trojan war. Does that prove that Helen of Troy was the daughter of Zeus?
I think you're point is valid, geographic accuracy does not imply the religion is correct.
However, Christianity does not (to my knowledge) have any doctrine which runs contrary to the archaeological evidence.

Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:33 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Are we done here? I think we're done here. For no apparent reason, by the authority I arbitrarily vested in myself, I declare this debate a draw, because neither side was willing to admit the other might me right.

This debate probably won't convert anyone, but it is very educational to both sides. I've seen arguments I've never seen before and found the points offered by both side fascinating.
Also, I admit fully that I may be wrong and that God and Religion may be false, but I believe and sincerely hope I am right.
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:38 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
You know how you guys all talk about how there's so much evidence behind Christianity?
Well, Greek mythology has much the same evidence. A city which is found where Troy should be has much evidence of a siege, and by all reasonable logic is in fact Troy from the Trojan war. Does that prove that Helen of Troy was the daughter of Zeus?

Here are the facts I'm aware of:
-Jesus was a real person who lived about 2,000 years ago
-Jesus preformed many amazing acts, leading many to call him a prophet
-Jesus was put to death by Roman authorities around 33 AD
-Many biblical cities have been discovered, or a similar city has been discovered

Yes, Troy existed, but no evidence shows that Gods fought there. Similarly, Jesus existed, but we can never prove he was the Son of God. True, not every story in the Bible, or any sacred text for that matter, has been proved, but that's where faith and belief come in. That is what distinguishes religion from history.
Permalink
| September 23, 2013, 7:46 pm
Organized religion is wrong because you donate your time and money to men and not God.
Follow the God of your heart, and the science of your mind, and you will never be left disappointed.
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 3:47 pm
 Group admin 
Thank you for your cooperation.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Organized religion is wrong because you donate your time and money to men and not God.
Follow the God of your heart, and the science of your mind, and you will never be left disappointed.
How do you donate to God? By donating to causes that agree with the will of God.
Unless you follow the One true God, disappointment will be all you have. How can following a god you invented get you any satisfaction, that would be like serving your imaginary friend!
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 3:55 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
How do you donate to God? By donating to causes that agree with the will of God.
Unless you follow the One true God, disappointment will be all you have. How can following a god you invented get you any satisfaction, that would be like serving your imaginary friend!

I'd rather serve my own imaginary friend than another man's.

Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 3:58 pm
Quoting The Object of Legend
Thank you for your cooperation.
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist

Unless you follow the One true God, disappointment will be all you have.

How do you know?
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 6:02 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
How do you know?

By Faith.
Permalink
| March 13, 2014, 9:19 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
By Faith.

So basicaly you believe what you are told. You are happy because you were raised having been told again and again that you can not be happy any other way. So you were afraid to try (or had a coincidental experience that strengthened your misjudgement) and never really found out what "being happy" actually means.
Permalink
| March 13, 2014, 1:54 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So basicaly you believe what you are told. You are happy because you were raised having been told again and again that you can not be happy any other way. So you were afraid to try (or had a coincidental experience that strengthened your misjudgement) and never really found out what "being happy" actually means.

Yet this is exactly how you were raised. You grew up on atheistic principles, so you automatically decide there is no God, or "gods" for that matter.
Permalink
| March 13, 2014, 1:57 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So basicaly you believe what you are told. You are happy because you were raised having been told again and again that you can not be happy any other way. So you were afraid to try (or had a coincidental experience that strengthened your misjudgement) and never really found out what "being happy" actually means.

Naw, there's an experience there. I've been to church and the Holy Spirit's moving there. That might sound weirdly spiritual, but it's true. When you experience Jesus, say, at church, it's not blind faith anymore.

Permalink
| March 13, 2014, 2:02 pm
Quoting Alex Rode
Naw, there's an experience there. I've been to church and the Holy Spirit's moving there. That might sound weirdly spiritual, but it's true. When you experience Jesus, say, at church, it's not blind faith anymore.

So what, you think just because I am an atheist, I have had no spiritual experiences?

I just analyze that experience, which is the difference between our belief systems. If I feel a feeling of satisfaction in a church, I think about what it is and probably come to the conclusion of nostalgia or aesthetic pleasure. Maybe. You just say oh, it is that thing that my parents call God, I guess I do (..?) feel it? And then you asked your parents: "was that Geezus?" and they say "yes, son." and you think "well, they are adults, they sure know what is true, so it probably really was Geezus."

The real problem here is not your upbringing, but the really annoying concept religious people keep telling me - that I can not be happy without believing them. But I actually am pretty happy. Could not be more, actually. Because I am a biologist and I understand some basic psychological principles, like that treadmill buisness, whatever she is called.

This is like drug addicts telling me how awesome it is to do drugs. That they make you feel real good. Well, nothing can make me feel any better than right now. But stuff can make "now" feel less good in comparisence.

What I am saying is that happiness is like a rainbow. It is a spectre, where totally ecstatic is the happiest moment of your life that you remember and being like totally down is the time your dog died or something, I do not know.

Know what I mean?
Permalink
| March 13, 2014, 2:27 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus

So basically you mean that as kids growing up, you feel something most likely not supernatural, but your parents say it is and you go with it. If the sensation was really fake, wouldn't it get sort of . . . old? There are things that seem really great at first. But as time goes on and you experience it more and more, wouldn't it get overrated?

Say that the supernatural sensation that some people feel at church is fake. They only believe it because their parents or the pastor led them to believe it. It would get pretty average after a while. Why would people still go to church? It's just a physical feeling that gets outdated, after all.

Then about being happy . . . Religious people tell you that you can't be happy unless you join their religion, huh. Do you see yourself living a great, productive life filled with joy and all that? I'm glad if you do. But I gotta say, you'll never be completely without Jesus.

Everyone sins, and it's Jesus who saves us from our sins. You can go through life being completely happy without facing supernatural accountability, but in the end, you'll have a sad shock.

I know, it's totally your choice to believe it or not; it requires faith.
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| March 13, 2014, 8:25 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So basicaly you believe what you are told. You are happy because you were raised having been told again and again that you can not be happy any other way. So you were afraid to try (or had a coincidental experience that strengthened your misjudgement) and never really found out what "being happy" actually means.
I have not been told that I cannot be happy any other way (or at least, I do not believe it). I believe that if you find your happiness things which are mortal, then your happiness will die with them. Similarly, if your happiness is founded in the immortal, it will never die.

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| March 14, 2014, 6:07 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So basicaly you believe what you are told. You are happy because you were raised having been told again and again that you can not be happy any other way. So you were afraid to try (or had a coincidental experience that strengthened your misjudgement) and never really found out what "being happy" actually means.
I have not been told that I cannot be happy any other way (or at least, I do not believe it). I believe that if you find your happiness things which are mortal, then your happiness will die with them. Similarly, if your happiness is founded in the immortal, it will never die.

First off, if I die and go to hell, my life will be complete and I will even get a bonus eternity! Also I would be satisfied that I would have come where I wanted to.

And about my happiness dying and stuff; depends on your perception of time.
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| March 15, 2014, 4:10 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
First off, if I die and go to hell, my life will be complete and I will even get a bonus eternity! Also I would be satisfied that I would have come where I wanted to.
You know hell, is designed so that you won't enjoy it.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
And about my happiness dying and stuff; depends on your perception of time.
If everything that makes you happy were to disappear overnight, would you still be made happy by it?

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| March 19, 2014, 9:42 am
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Then who is the most corruptive person that could exist?

I would suggest..ME! >:D
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| April 23, 2014, 6:54 am
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