MOCpages : Share your LEGO® creations
LEGO models my own creation MOCpages toys shop The International Fan of LEGO Debate ClubOther
Welcome to the world's greatest LEGO fan community!
Explore cool creations, share your own, and have lots of fun together.  ~  It's all free!
Conversation »
Education
Join to comment
 Group admin 
Thoughts on education. What can the US do to save itself? Is China's education THAT big of a deal? And, if you aren't from the USA, how is your education doing?
Permalink
| May 31, 2013, 8:23 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Thoughts on education. What can the US do to save itself? Is China's education THAT big of a deal? And, if you aren't from the USA, how is your education doing?

Very badly. Unfortunately, we live too close to the Vatican, so a great deal of out budget for public education is diverted to private institutes (even if the freaking CONSTITUTION forbids it), moreover the teaching of Catholicism in public schools costs the State 1,2 Billion euros per year.
So naturally, education is very poor, and schools acively kill our kids. By falling on them, I mean.
Permalink
| June 2, 2013, 11:55 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Yuri Fassio
Very badly. Unfortunately, we live too close to the Vatican, so a great deal of out budget for public education is diverted to private institutes (even if the freaking CONSTITUTION forbids it), moreover the teaching of Catholicism in public schools costs the State 1,2 Billion euros per year.
So naturally, education is very poor, and schools acively kill our kids. By falling on them, I mean.

I never thought such problems existed in Rome. Thats, amazing. The Vatican is a separate country entirely. Its kinda like the US diverts money from the US education budget for Buffalo, NY and then gives that money to Canada to help and maintain Niagara Falls. For the USA, its not really lack of money, I think, its more that we have some pretty bad teachers. They don't respect the knowledge they teach, and they don't completely understand what they are saying.
Permalink
| June 2, 2013, 12:01 pm
 Group admin 
I was cashier at a store right next to a public high-school once. The kids that came through those doors were terribly immature, had no social skills, and acted like they didn't know 2+2. It was sad. I say government-schools are doing a bad job. Homeschooling is the ideal solution, and statistics prove it.
Permalink
| June 7, 2013, 5:19 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting The Object of Legend
I was cashier at a store right next to a public high-school once. The kids that came through those doors were terribly immature, had no social skills, and acted like they didn't know 2+2. It was sad. I say government-schools are doing a bad job. Homeschooling is the ideal solution, and statistics prove it.

Yeah, okay, but home schooling has its own problems; kids at home I would imagine develop less social skills. Also, I know for a fact that many parents don't care for their children, and won't teach them. I think that the job of a teacher should be coveted; and hard to get.
Permalink
| June 7, 2013, 5:26 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Yeah, okay, but home schooling has its own problems; kids at home I would imagine develop less social skills. Also, I know for a fact that many parents don't care for their children, and won't teach them. I think that the job of a teacher should be coveted; and hard to get.
Home-schooled children actually develop far better social skills because they interact with a diverse assortment of people instead of only their peers. They learn to relate to people, and are able to discuss a much wider variety of topics. The fact is, home-schooled children out preform public schooled kids in every academic area.
Permalink
| June 7, 2013, 8:18 pm
 Group admin 
I think one of the problems are that we think we can fix everything by throwing more money at it; buy more technology, and things will magically get better. The biggest problem is the teacher's unions. The rich union bosses aren't in it for the kids, they're in it for themselves. Teachers in Chicago are the highest paid in the country, making 76K a year (add 50K for lavish benefits), but the schools are failing, and Chicago is a gang city.
Another problem is lifelong tenure. The unions get it into their contracts that they can't be fired for anything short of a felony if they do good for a few years. When my 8th grade teacher was in school, there was this teacher, and on the first day he told them, "yeah, we're not doing anything in this class". How he got there was he worked real well for 5 years or so, and after that they can't fire him for anything.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 8:08 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Yeah, okay, but home schooling has its own problems; kids at home I would imagine develop less social skills. Also, I know for a fact that many parents don't care for their children, and won't teach them. I think that the job of a teacher should be coveted; and hard to get.
Home-schooled children actually develop far better social skills because they interact with a diverse assortment of people instead of only their peers. They learn to relate to people, and are able to discuss a much wider variety of topics. The fact is, home-schooled children out preform public schooled kids in every academic area.

I would possible agree but fact is also that a lot of parents are extreme christ and want to homeschool because of they dont want that their kids learn about evolution and science. They prefer that the kids think, the world has been made in 7 days etc.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 8:43 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
I would possible agree but fact is also that a lot of parents are extreme christ and want to homeschool because of they dont want that their kids learn about evolution and science. They prefer that the kids think, the world has been made in 7 days etc.

That's crazy. They homeschool them because they don't want them brainwashed in liberal schools.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 8:58 am
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
That's crazy. They homeschool them because they don't want them brainwashed in liberal schools.

Well, for a short while, I was taught in a christian school; let me tell yah, they put religion before everything, they graded you based on how much they like you. Yeah.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 10:53 am
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
I think one of the problems are that we think we can fix everything by throwing more money at it; buy more technology, and things will magically get better. The biggest problem is the teacher's unions. The rich union bosses aren't in it for the kids, they're in it for themselves. Teachers in Chicago are the highest paid in the country, making 76K a year (add 50K for lavish benefits), but the schools are failing, and Chicago is a gang city.
Another problem is lifelong tenure. The unions get it into their contracts that they can't be fired for anything short of a felony if they do good for a few years. When my 8th grade teacher was in school, there was this teacher, and on the first day he told them, "yeah, we're not doing anything in this class". How he got there was he worked real well for 5 years or so, and after that they can't fire him for anything.

My school system adopted the use of Macbooks for students, starting from sixth grade. (Mind you, the problems at that caused are WAY annoying.) But its the interest of teachers. We need actual people from the field of, say, math to teach math. We have teachers that take the job of a teaching because it gives money; thats the driving mentality.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 10:55 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Well, for a short while, I was taught in a christian school; let me tell yah, they put religion before everything, they graded you based on how much they like you. Yeah.

Of course religion was a big part, seeing as it's a church run school.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 10:57 am
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
Of course religion was a big part, seeing as it's a church run school.

No, it wasn't church run. It was part Foster, part Christian; there wasn't a particular church involved. They had their own church, but no actually church was funding anything.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 10:59 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
I would possible agree but fact is also that a lot of parents are extreme christ and want to homeschool because of they dont want that their kids learn about evolution and science. They prefer that the kids think, the world has been made in 7 days etc.
It looks like you wrote this too fast, but I'll try to make sense of it. First of all evolution is not science, it is a theory not a scientific law. Public schools don't teach both sides of the creation debate so those that want to know both sides must go to a private school or home-school. Perhaps we will debate creation some time in the future but right now we are discussing academics, and where academics are concerned home-schooling prevails.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 11:12 am
 Group admin 
I'm not sure that homeschool leaves kids socially better, because a lot of the homeschooled people I know are kind of weird.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 11:15 am
Probably depends on what motivated the parents to home school the kids in the first place. I've seen the full spectrum.
Another unfortunate problem with education are the children and their often useless parents. I agree with that there are issues regarding teachers, unions, all that. But it's a fact that the average IQ of Americans is going down at an alarming rate. It may be the first time in human evolution. My theory is that in 20 years, kids won't be allowed to go outside in the rain because they'll drown like turkeys. Just a thought.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 8:33 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Probably depends on what motivated the parents to home school the kids in the first place. I've seen the full spectrum.
Another unfortunate problem with education are the children and their often useless parents. I agree with that there are issues regarding teachers, unions, all that. But it's a fact that the average IQ of Americans is going down at an alarming rate. It may be the first time in human evolution. My theory is that in 20 years, kids won't be allowed to go outside in the rain because they'll drown like turkeys. Just a thought.

Meanwhile in China.....
In all seriousness, though, this is the problem. If you take an Iphone, a wonderful piece of kit, you will find no way to take it apart, and see what makes it work. People are more interested in being entertained, than being informed.
We can solve this how? Buy making Lego available to everyone. Think about it. You have to THINK. LDD can help in computer design, and good ole building can help with mechanics. Of course, this won't single handedly change everything, but its a start.
Permalink
| June 8, 2013, 8:40 pm
 Group admin 
Lets keep this one rolling folks.

Do you think that the Chinese education system is a serious threat? Or is it just a front? Is, say, the American College system better than the Chinese?
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 2:16 pm
I think there are many flaws to the American schooling system - including college.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 5:56 pm
Anyone else have free university?
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:14 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyone else have free university?

What's that?
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:23 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting David the Fire Ninja Jedi
What's that?

I don't know what you are taking about. Many community colleges are free, granted if you live in their zoned area.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:24 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Anyone else have free university?

Who has the best colleges for, well, every field?
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:25 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting David the Fire Ninja Jedi
I think there are many flaws to the American schooling system - including college.

Teachers. THAT is the problem. And the terrible thought that entertainment>education, which is a false statement.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:26 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I don't know what you are taking about. Many community colleges are free, granted if you live in their zoned area.

Oh, that kind of free.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:29 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting David the Fire Ninja Jedi
Oh, that kind of free.

Yeah. Shame that the education is wasted on future burger flippers.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:30 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Who has the best colleges for, well, every field?

Uhh... how does a college become a better one? By having more equpment? By being super expensive so everyone thinks it is good and so only really good and really rich people go there?


There are no god or bad universities. And also - education is never wasted. Have you ever flipped burger? You know what people do while they flip burgers? They think. And that is the point.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:45 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Uhh... how does a college become a better one? By having more equpment? By being super expensive so everyone thinks it is good and so only really good and really rich people go there?


There are no god or bad universities. And also - education is never wasted. Have you ever flipped burger? You know what people do while they flip burgers? They think. And that is the point.

Yeah, no. Maybe the way in Eastern Europe, but not in the States.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 6:52 pm
Colleges and Universities are generally ranked on a whole bunch of factors. Selectivity of students based on grades and standardized test scores. Faculty, how many have advanced degrees, published research, grants, etc. Endowment of the school, which often means money dedicated to funding professors and programs independent of student tuition. Number of programs/majors offered. Facilities, labs, lecture halls, dorms, quality of life are in there, too. So, no, not all Universities are the same, at least not in most parts of the world. But if you're flipping burgers, you might want to think about going to Hamburger University. And that's no joke. http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/corporate_careers/training_and_development/hamburger_university.html
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 8:27 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Colleges and Universities are generally ranked on a whole bunch of factors. Selectivity of students based on grades and standardized test scores. Faculty, how many have advanced degrees, published research, grants, etc. Endowment of the school, which often means money dedicated to funding professors and programs independent of student tuition. Number of programs/majors offered. Facilities, labs, lecture halls, dorms, quality of life are in there, too. So, no, not all Universities are the same, at least not in most parts of the world. But if you're flipping burgers, you might want to think about going to Hamburger University. And that's no joke. http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/corporate_careers/training_and_development/hamburger_university.html

Thats, interesting. The art of burger making? Wow. Personally though, I think that the College system in the USA is better than most; it is rising in cost which isn't good, but at the same time, on "higher" quality schools, education is better.
Permalink
| June 10, 2013, 10:14 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
it is rising in cost

So what you are saying is that we should milk schooling instead of investing in it?
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 1:13 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying is that we should milk schooling instead of investing in it?

No, not exactly. Americans have TERRIBLE habits when it comes to money; they don't save for long term. It should be encouraged to save from the get-go. But at the same time, education prices are going through the roof; it costs a lot of money to get into a decent college, with a decent workforce turnout.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 1:16 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
No, not exactly. Americans have TERRIBLE habits when it comes to money; they don't save for long term. It should be encouraged to save from the get-go. But at the same time, education prices are going through the roof; it costs a lot of money to get into a decent college, with a decent workforce turnout.

Yeah, your country is the poorest country in the world. Unlike some random african or asian countries that have nothing, your country has even less. And it still spends money on its military, but taht is going off topic.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 1:20 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Yeah, your country is the poorest country in the world. Unlike some random african or asian countries that have nothing, your country has even less. And it still spends money on its military, but taht is going off topic.

No. No. No. You sir, have gone wrong. "poorest country in the world". By what possibly measure? And, uh, before you bring up debt, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpJKRD9pyt8
Now, our Human Development Index is at a steady #3 against all countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index A stark contrast against Slovenia's #21, China's #101, and Russia's #55. Poor? I laugh at you.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 3:20 pm
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but do you think education should be free? I do. And I don't just mean school. I say that all Universities should be government funded, and free for anyone who has finished high-school with the appropriate (in my state of my country) OP, or whatever your country uses. Thoughts?
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 3:28 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but do you think education should be free? I do. And I don't just mean school. I say that all Universities should be government funded, and free for anyone who has finished high-school with the appropriate (in my state of my country) OP, or whatever your country uses. Thoughts?

.....uhm, thats kinda what are discussing. Several community colleges are free (though you have to live in a certain area for it to be free). But I think that having a government controlled-education system would just add even more to the debt; and considering the track record of congress in the past few years, I would hate to go to a college run by those congressmen and women.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 3:54 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
.....uhm, thats kinda what are discussing. Several community colleges are free (though you have to live in a certain area for it to be free). But I think that having a government controlled-education system would just add even more to the debt; and considering the track record of congress in the past few years, I would hate to go to a college run by those congressmen and women.

Oh. In Australia, we have very good Universities. At one stage, under Gough Whitlam, they were totally free. No debt, no fees, nothing. That's what I want.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 4:00 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Quoting Achintya Prasad
.....uhm, thats kinda what are discussing. Several community colleges are free (though you have to live in a certain area for it to be free). But I think that having a government controlled-education system would just add even more to the debt; and considering the track record of congress in the past few years, I would hate to go to a college run by those congressmen and women.

Oh. In Australia, we have very good Universities. At one stage, under Gough Whitlam, they were totally free. No debt, no fees, nothing. That's what I want.

Well, "primary" schooling (K-12 in my book) can be relatively free (you have to pay taxes, but its public schools, so). But once again, "free" college isn't as good as a college which is independent, or you have to pay.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 4:25 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
No. No. No. You sir, have gone wrong. "poorest country in the world". By what possibly measure? And, uh, before you bring up debt, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpJKRD9pyt8
Now, our Human Development Index is at a steady #3 against all countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index A stark contrast against Slovenia's #21, China's #101, and Russia's #55. Poor? I laugh at you.

I was talking about whole debt in which the video itself states it has the worst. You ahve the least money in the world. Ergo poorest.

You may look at it any other way, but that does not change the way I looked at it, so I am right.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 4:52 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I was talking about whole debt in which the video itself states it has the worst. You ahve the least money in the world. Ergo poorest.

You may look at it any other way, but that does not change the way I looked at it, so I am right.

The incorrect-ness of that comment is so unbearable. You wanna talk about actual assets? The US has the worlds LARGEST gold reserve; it owns 76% of the world's gold. Poor? No. It has the world's largest debt, but (spoiler alert) as you know, Japan is the worse one off here. CHECK your facts, my friend. The USA is FAR from the poorest country in the world; it shows that your people are still frankly living under a box if you truly believe that. (Thats not an attack on you, but an observation, just like you did to my grandfather, so.)
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:05 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
The incorrect-ness of that comment is so unbearable. You wanna talk about actual assets? The US has the worlds LARGEST gold reserve; it owns 76% of the world's gold. Poor? No. It has the world's largest debt, but (spoiler alert) as you know, Japan is the worse one off here. CHECK your facts, my friend. The USA is FAR from the poorest country in the world; it shows that your people are still frankly living under a box if you truly believe that. (Thats not an attack on you, but an observation, just like you did to my grandfather, so.)

Oh, and all this is WAY off topic; its what the USA thread is for.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:06 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
The incorrect-ness of that comment is so unbearable. You wanna talk about actual assets? The US has the worlds LARGEST gold reserve; it owns 76% of the world's gold. Poor? No. It has the world's largest debt, but (spoiler alert) as you know, Japan is the worse one off here. CHECK your facts, my friend. The USA is FAR from the poorest country in the world; it shows that your people are still frankly living under a box if you truly believe that. (Thats not an attack on you, but an observation, just like you did to my grandfather, so.)

Hmm... Why does it not pay off its debt then? It is only getting larger the longer they have it.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:06 pm
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Thoughts?

It should be free and here in Slovenija it is free.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:09 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Hmm... Why does it not pay off its debt then? It is only getting larger the longer they have it.

We haven't full committed to it. As you can tell, I am a patriotic person (which is interesting considering that my parents are immigrants, so), but the latest few presidents have been pretty bad. Ever since Reagan, our president quality has gone down (I prefer Obama to Bush, but who wouldn't?). As the video stated, we can pay the debt off we just used every cent we earned to pay it off; of course that is impossible (to use all the money on one thing). But its important to note that if we get a good leader (I feel confident that we will have one soon) the right things will be done. I agree, the debt is WAY to high. But is the US the poorest? No. And I would hurry up and get rid of the idea that more debt equals poorer, at least in the case of a country; its not true.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:15 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
We haven't full committed to it. As you can tell, I am a patriotic person (which is interesting considering that my parents are immigrants, so), but the latest few presidents have been pretty bad. Ever since Reagan, our president quality has gone down (I prefer Obama to Bush, but who wouldn't?). As the video stated, we can pay the debt off we just used every cent we earned to pay it off; of course that is impossible (to use all the money on one thing). But its important to note that if we get a good leader (I feel confident that we will have one soon) the right things will be done. I agree, the debt is WAY to high. But is the US the poorest? No. And I would hurry up and get rid of the idea that more debt equals poorer, at least in the case of a country; its not true.

I would say they should hire an economist, but nobody would hold a debt for no reason.

I mean, anybody to whom U.S.A. is in debt to can claim its money at any time. Which makes me question even more, why would somebody not take its money back at any time?
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:27 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I would say they should hire an economist, but nobody would hold a debt for no reason.

I mean, anybody to whom U.S.A. is in debt to can claim its money at any time. Which makes me question even more, why would somebody not take its money back at any time?

You know, there is an old proverb from the world of finance. "If you owe the bank $10,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10,000,000, the bank has a problem." That, and the fact that the USA is the world's largest economy, and is the world's second largest exporter of, stuff.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:31 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
You know, there is an old proverb from the world of finance. "If you owe the bank $10,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10,000,000, the bank has a problem." That, and the fact that the USA is the world's largest economy, and is the world's second largest exporter of, stuff.

Is it still the largest importer?
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:32 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Is it still the largest importer?

Is it the one that creates ideas that are later shipped out to China?
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 5:34 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Is it the one that creates ideas that are later shipped out to China?

I do not know. Is it?

Kind of hypocritical, though, right? Having workers with less human rights work for you does not become more ethical if it is done somewhere nobody loses those rights. If you want cheap workers, just take away rights from your own people. And if you do not do that, just put everybody who has factories in China (and is not its citizen) in prison.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 6:04 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
I do not know. Is it?

Kind of hypocritical, though, right? Having workers with less human rights work for you does not become more ethical if it is done somewhere nobody loses those rights. If you want cheap workers, just take away rights from your own people. And if you do not do that, just put everybody who has factories in China (and is not its citizen) in prison.

You-what? Huh? Human rights is a problem that CHINA has. The US has humane rights for it workers; and the fact that you think we should get rid of them shows that you are leaning more and more into a dangerous thought process, and one that has created truly evil people.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 6:06 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
You-what? Huh? Human rights is a problem that CHINA has. The US has humane rights for it workers; and the fact that you think we should get rid of them shows that you are leaning more and more into a dangerous thought process, and one that has created truly evil people.

Thank you for the compliment general.

I am saying that IF you want cheap workers, abolish rights at home.

And if you want to obey human rights, do not abuse other nations' impossession of them.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 6:10 pm
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
It should be free and here in Slovenija it is free.

There's an old saying: "You get what you pay for."

Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 6:47 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
You know, there is an old proverb from the world of finance. "If you owe the bank $10,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10,000,000, the bank has a problem." That, and the fact that the USA is the world's largest economy, and is the world's second largest exporter of, stuff.

But it's a struggle between the actual economy and the government's destructive policies of overspending and overprinting. I'd have to somewhat agree with what Deus is saying in this line. We're not a poor country if you look at private holdings, and the fact that we have indoor plumbing. But the government is so out of control there is no way we can ever pay it off. Like ever.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 6:53 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
But it's a struggle between the actual economy and the government's destructive policies of overspending and overprinting. I'd have to somewhat agree with what Deus is saying in this line. We're not a poor country if you look at private holdings, and the fact that we have indoor plumbing. But the government is so out of control there is no way we can ever pay it off. Like ever.

Not true. If the government listened to the people, here are some things that can work:
-stop making pennies
-stop making nickels
-include sales tax with products being sold
-increase funding to NASA (drastically)
-get rid of Social Security
And there you have it. NASA has projected, that if it was given the funds, it could go out, mine an asteroid, and then sale the materials. We could get rid of our debt in less than a decade.

Its all based on what you want to cut. Social Security is what need cutting, not the military, or NASA. And until those folks that call themselves "leaders" realize that, we aren't going anywhere.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 7:42 pm
Politicians don't care about any of that (like saving the planet from disaster). Their only concern is getting credit for taking money from one group of people and giving it to another.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 7:56 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Politicians don't care about any of that (like saving the planet from disaster). Their only concern is getting credit for taking money from one group of people and giving it to another.

It wasn't always like that. I think, that after Reagan, after the Cold War, the US political system started shifting. If you ask me, we need a true war veteran in office; someone like JFK or Eisenhower. Or even Washington for that matter.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 8:32 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
It wasn't always like that. I think, that after Reagan, after the Cold War, the US political system started shifting. If you ask me, we need a true war veteran in office; someone like JFK or Eisenhower. Or even Washington for that matter.

Once Johnson's Great Society schemes finally kicked in, there was no turning back. A permanent dependent class, reproducing at a much faster rate, voting for more stuff from the government. Tax paying citizens just can't keep up, there's no way. I just don't see how we get out of it. It's beyond what a president can do.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 8:43 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Once Johnson's Great Society schemes finally kicked in, there was no turning back. A permanent dependent class, reproducing at a much faster rate, voting for more stuff from the government. Tax paying citizens just can't keep up, there's no way. I just don't see how we get out of it. It's beyond what a president can do.

With that defeatist attitude we will just sink lower, frankly. People's moral is low, and have "resigned" to their fate. Its sounds more like a cliche, but it seems that the USA is just tired.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 8:53 pm
Who knows what the next election will bring. But it's a long way from now. The big problem is the media being in tank for the Big O.
Permalink
| June 11, 2013, 9:14 pm
Quoting El Barto !
There's an old saying: "You get what you pay for."

I am not saying it is a perfect situation, but everyone pays taxes and everybody goes to university. Until then you only have your talent and work attitude to thank to get further in life.

After that it is only whether you studied abroad or if you know people, because our employers are horrible idiots.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 3:59 am
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Who knows what the next election will bring. But it's a long way from now. The big problem is the media being in tank for the Big O.
That's true, other than FOX that is.

Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 6:34 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Social Security is what need cutting, not the military, or NASA. And until those folks that call themselves "leaders" realize that, we aren't going anywhere.

Social Security was a bad idea, but the genie is out of the bottle now, so it'll really hard to get people off being dependent on it.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 8:06 am
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Who knows what the next election will bring. But it's a long way from now. The big problem is the media being in tank for the Big O.

Eh. I didn't like either candidate (but I can't vote, so). Neither really want the best for the country; they just want the recognition, and Air Force One. I say put Clint Eastwood in office. Funny to see what NK thinks about that.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 12:43 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
Social Security was a bad idea, but the genie is out of the bottle now, so it'll really hard to get people off being dependent on it.

This is true. The American people kinda need to realize that SS has no upsides, or they are weighed out by its enormous cost. Cut it, and get a new Universal Health Care system, a bit like the one installed in Canada.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 12:44 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
This is true. The American people kinda need to realize that SS has no upsides, or they are weighed out by its enormous cost.
Really it's that it's been mismanaged.
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Cut it, and get a new Universal Health Care system, a bit like the one installed in Canada.

Find me a country with socialized medicine that isn't either
A) Drowning in debt
or
B)rationing care

Sure, socialized medicine is free, but can you get it immediately, and is it American quality?
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 4:57 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
Find me a country with socialized medicine that isn't either
A) Drowning in debt
or
B)rationing care

Sure, socialized medicine is free, but can you get it immediately, and is it American quality?

Well, that is a good point. But I thought Canada was doing quite well.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 5:01 pm
The whole Scandinavia has it pretty nice. Also, drowning in debt is independant from healthcare.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 5:08 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
The whole Scandinavia has it pretty nice. Also, drowning in debt is independant from healthcare.

Not when the debt comes from the healthcare system.

Scandinavia is hardly the same as the US; different environments, different culture, and different habits than their US counterparts. Canada is similar to the US.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 5:13 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
But I thought Canada was doing quite well.

Because they ration health care. People often have to wait months for procedures they need now. It's not uncommon for people to come down to America to get treatment and pay cash, because even if they can afford it, they aren't allowed to pay. Everything must come from the government.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 6:01 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
Because they ration health care. People often have to wait months for procedures they need now. It's not uncommon for people to come down to America to get treatment and pay cash, because even if they can afford it, they aren't allowed to pay. Everything must come from the government.

Huh. I did not know that. I just assumed that the USA's northern sister was just generally doing better. Glad I was wrong. What do you suppose the US should do? It has the third largest population in the world; I don't see any good solutions.
Permalink
| June 12, 2013, 9:04 pm
Quoting michael k.
Because they ration health care. People often have to wait months for procedures they need now. It's not uncommon for people to come down to America to get treatment and pay cash, because even if they can afford it, they aren't allowed to pay. Everything must come from the government.

So what you are saying rich people deserve healthcare, but poor people do not? If Iived in U.S.A. and needed healthcare that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 3:11 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying rich people deserve healthcare, but poor people do not? If Iived in U.S.A. and needed healthcare that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.
No, everyone deserves good healthcare. When you ration care, nobody gets good care. It becomes hard to get. There are lots of stories from Britain of people waiting 3-5 hours to at the emergency room! That's not good.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 6:54 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying rich people deserve healthcare, but poor people do not? If Iived in U.S.A. and needed healthcare that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.
No, everyone deserves good healthcare. When you ration care, nobody gets good care. It becomes hard to get. There are lots of stories from Britain of people waiting 3-5 hours to at the emergency room! That's not good.

Make more hospitals.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 7:04 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Make more hospitals.

That isn't relevant. There's a doctor shortage because in a socialist system, there's no incentive to make profit. In America, doctors make $200K a year, and that's the motivation to outweigh the huge cost of 8+ years of school and residency.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 8:19 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying rich people deserve health care, but poor people do not?

Well in Canada, if the government denies you a procedure because you're old and you're gonna die anyway, you aren't allowed to pay for it out of pocket. So you're saying that if a rich person and a poor person can't both have health care, neither gets it, because that's fair?

Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
If lived in U.S.A. and needed health care that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.

Really? You'd have to rob about 10 banks to get $100K
In America, nobody is denied health care based on inability to pay. If you get really sick, and you have no insurance, you may go into debt, but you'll get the best health care in the world immediately.
In countries with socialized medicine, there's a doctor shortage, so over there, you'll almost always have to wait, waiting months isn't uncommon.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 8:38 am
Quoting The Object of Legend
No, everyone deserves good healthcare. When you ration care, nobody gets good care. It becomes hard to get. There are lots of stories from Britain of people waiting 3-5 hours to at the emergency room! That's not good.

That's got nothing to do with rationing.
It's because a lot of people who go to ERs aren't actually that badly hurt.

Try browsing a few ER doctor/nurse forums.
I'd link to one, but it's kind of NSFW because of all of the blood and drugs and general human pond scum.
Quoting The Object of Legend
No, everyone deserves good healthcare. When you ration care, nobody gets good care. It becomes hard to get. There are lots of stories from Britain of people waiting 3-5 hours to at the emergency room! That's not good.

Quick point, that's got nothing to do with rationing. There's plenty of stories of people waiting for hours at ERs, and pretty much always it's because they aren't really that badly hurt.

Browse a few forums for ER doctors and nurses.
I'd give you a link, but they tend to be rather NSFW because of all the blood and drugs and general human pond scum.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Make more hospitals.

Aaand who's going to pay for that, exactly?

Socialism SOUNDS great, right up until it occurs to you that half your paycheck is going to stuff that has nothing at all to do with you.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying rich people deserve healthcare, but poor people do not? If Iived in U.S.A. and needed healthcare that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.

So what you are saying is you're the sort of person the world'd be better off without?

A: that's what insurance is for and B: if you rob someone you're basically saying your life is worth more than theirs. So, classic lowlife.

Besides, what he said has nothing to do with 'deserving'. If someone wants to hop a border and buy a product or service in a different country, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 10:01 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
That's got nothing to do with rationing.
It's because a lot of people who go to ERs aren't actually that badly hurt.

Try browsing a few ER doctor/nurse forums.
I'd link to one, but it's kind of NSFW because of all of the blood and drugs and general human pond scum.
Quoting The Object of Legend
No, everyone deserves good healthcare. When you ration care, nobody gets good care. It becomes hard to get. There are lots of stories from Britain of people waiting 3-5 hours to at the emergency room! That's not good.

Quick point, that's got nothing to do with rationing. There's plenty of stories of people waiting for hours at ERs, and pretty much always it's because they aren't really that badly hurt.

Browse a few forums for ER doctors and nurses.
I'd give you a link, but they tend to be rather NSFW because of all the blood and drugs and general human pond scum.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Make more hospitals.

Aaand who's going to pay for that, exactly?

Socialism SOUNDS great, right up until it occurs to you that half your paycheck is going to stuff that has nothing at all to do with you.
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
So what you are saying rich people deserve healthcare, but poor people do not? If Iived in U.S.A. and needed healthcare that I could not afford, I would go out and rob someone.

So what you are saying is you're the sort of person the world'd be better off without?

A: that's what insurance is for and B: if you rob someone you're basically saying your life is worth more than theirs. So, classic lowlife.

Besides, what he said has nothing to do with 'deserving'. If someone wants to hop a border and buy a product or service in a different country, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to.

Boy has all this escalated quickly (and without me). Alright, lets see if I can catch up.

I agree, on all points, with Areetsa. Everyone deserves healthcare, and Socialism is not good.
Permalink
| June 13, 2013, 10:41 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I agree, on all points, with Areetsa. Everyone deserves healthcare, and Socialism is not good.

Never said anything about deserving.

Plenty of people don't get what they deserve.

Hundreds of ex-communist officials are walking around with a distinct shortage of holes in their skulls, for instance.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 12:27 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
Never said anything about deserving.

Plenty of people don't get what they deserve.

Hundreds of ex-communist officials are walking around with a distinct shortage of holes in their skulls, for instance.

Thats true (the communist bit). But I am saying that "in the land of the free" shouldn't people get what they deserve, in terms of healthcare?
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 1:39 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Thats true (the communist bit). But I am saying that "in the land of the free" shouldn't people get what they deserve, in terms of healthcare?

That's walking a fine line between right-wrong and capitalism-socialism. That's a next-to-no-win line there. Yes, people who need health care deserve to get it but as mentioned earlier, should half your paycheck pay for stuff that doesnt affect you?



I know what your going to say, it's your health care too but what if you buy private health care because gov't bureaucracy health care kills lots of people because bureaucracy slows things to a crawl, depriving people of life-saving procedures they need now.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 3:26 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Zach Eli "Sierra" Sykes
That's walking a fine line between right-wrong and capitalism-socialism. That's a next-to-no-win line there. Yes, people who need health care deserve to get it but as mentioned earlier, should half your paycheck pay for stuff that doesnt affect you?


I know what your going to say, it's your health care too but what if you buy private health care because gov't bureaucracy health care kills lots of people because bureaucracy slows things to a crawl, depriving people of life-saving procedures they need now.


Uhm. No. I wasn't going to say that. I am saying this though: its not fair for the majority of your paycheck to go to a random person that is getting benefits because he or she is lazy. I hate that system. I am saying that only certain people, and there is only certain people, that are truly out of their luck deserve healthcare paid by others. But frankly, how can half this population support themselves, and the other half of the population?
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 4:20 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad

Uhm. No. I wasn't going to say that. I am saying this though: its not fair for the majority of your paycheck to go to a random person that is getting benefits because he or she is lazy. I hate that system. I am saying that only certain people, and there is only certain people, that are truly out of their luck deserve healthcare paid by others. But frankly, how can half this population support themselves, and the other half of the population?

Thank you! Finally, someone else who's seen sense! Australia has a very similar (and terrible) system. Not only do we take money from working families to give to those who don't work, but we pay them extra money for every child they have, and don't even check to see how they're spending the money. Now, i don't believe we should simply cut off these people, but paying them per child? No. What it does is breed a new generation who see that their parents didn't have to work, so they don't work. They don't get educated, so they can't get jobs, and they live off the money taken from those few who did get educated and do have jobs. We are rewarding laziness, and punishing hard work. Aware of the phrase "you get more of what you reward"? That's very true here. It's why Communism fails: Sooner or later, when you pay people not to work and take the money from those who do, you will have a society in which people compete to do the least, because their efforts do not equal their rewards. It is a tragic and foolish system that will eventually lead to a serious degradation of humanity, maybe as depicted in the novel The Time Machine by H.G Wells. We can stop it by giving funding only to those who need it, and by not getting that money from the "rich". A case I know of is where the father is too sick to work, but can't get any government benefits because the wife works and they have a small number of investment systems that bring them just enough income to boost them over the income threshold of the benefits. So here's this man (ridiculously sick, can't stand up), who's struggling to stay alive, and his wife run ragged because she has to work four out of five days of the working week, and becasue of her randomized roster can end up working nine days in a row. She also has to do all the shopping, three quarters of the cooking, and all the cleaning, and they have to send their son to school. I didn't make that up, that's a true story. That family gets NOTHING! Another family I know (I know a lot of families), got divorced years ago, wasted a lot of money on lawyers, and now the second daughter doesn't go to school (stopped in grade 8 and should now be in grade 12) because she doesn't like it, the eldest (two years out of school) could even get through TAFE, and the only one of that whole family that's actually trying to do anything is the autistic son. And they get ALL the benefits! Tell me how that's fair.

I don't believe in cutting poor/disadvantaged people off without a cent, but I do think that system should be revamped. Not everyone needs the money.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 4:41 pm
Wow, I wrote a lot there. Please read it, someone.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 4:44 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Wow, I wrote a lot there. Please read it, someone.

I read through that. And then, I read it again. Its the sad story that defines a lot of people in the USA, as well as Australia. Its good that someone wrote that; my fingers would have fallen after that much typing ;-).
Anyone want to disagree with Reaper's post? I don't think that that would be possible.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:06 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I read through that. And then, I read it again. Its the sad story that defines a lot of people in the USA, as well as Australia. Its good that someone wrote that; my fingers would have fallen after that much typing ;-).
Anyone want to disagree with Reaper's post? I don't think that that would be possible.

Thank you Achintya. Thank you very much.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:09 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Everyone deserves healthcare, and Socialism is not good.

Why do they deserve it if they don't pay for it? It isn't a right if the government gives it to you, a right is where the government's power ends, whereas free speech, religion, and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, is a right, things the government must defer to, not provide.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:13 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
Why do they deserve it if they don't pay for it? It isn't a right if the government gives it to you, a right is where the government's power ends, whereas free speech, religion, and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, is a right, things the government must defer to, not provide.

Uhm, take a look at the above few comments. I *think* I answered that; I could be wrong, but I think that I covered that.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:16 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Reaper the Ultimate .
Wow, I wrote a lot there. Please read it, someone.

I did. A prime example being a story my civics teacher told this past year. A girl in his class wasn't doing work, and he said "if you fail school, how will you get a job?", the girl replied, "I won't get a job, I'll just get 8 checks like my momma". It's sad the culture of entitlement the administration is breeding for political gain. Just give em a free cell phone and welfare, and they're dependable voters for life.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:17 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting michael k.
I did. A prime example being a story my civics teacher told this past year. A girl in his class wasn't doing work, and he said "if you fail school, how will you get a job?", the girl replied, "I won't get a job, I'll just get 8 checks like my momma". It's sad the culture of entitlement the administration is breeding for political gain. Just give em a free cell phone and welfare, and they're dependable voters for life.

We, live in a time where entertainment is valued above education. Whether this came from the media, or what, I don't know. But I would say that is the greatest threat the Western World has ever faced. Not the Nazis, or the USSR, or the Mongols, or whatever.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:20 pm
Quoting michael k.
I did. A prime example being a story my civics teacher told this past year. A girl in his class wasn't doing work, and he said "if you fail school, how will you get a job?", the girl replied, "I won't get a job, I'll just get 8 checks like my momma". It's sad the culture of entitlement the administration is breeding for political gain. Just give em a free cell phone and welfare, and they're dependable voters for life.

That is simply tragic. People think they're doing the right thing, but they're just making a bad situation worse.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:21 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Uhm, take a look at the above few comments. I *think* I answered that; I could be wrong, but I think that I covered that.

I agree with you on the point that more needs to be done to differentiate the lazy from the disabled or people who can't work for some reason.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:23 pm
Quoting michael k.
I agree with you on the point that more needs to be done to differentiate the lazy from the disabled or people who can't work for some reason.

I used to know a person who taught her daughter how to fall a certain way so they couldn't work but wouldn't be in pain. How do they fit in to those categories?
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 6:26 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Thats true (the communist bit). But I am saying that "in the land of the free" shouldn't people get what they deserve, in terms of healthcare?

The Greeks had a saying regarding slavery; IIRC, it was something like "freedom means freedom to starve".

It also means freedom to donate money to people poorer than you, but that's irrelevant.

There's a word for a person who never has to worry about losing their job or their house or their food; 'slave'.

Still, quite a few people in the world probably wouldn't mind that; after all, they've already got someone else paying for all their needs (the government) so making things a little more personal probably wouldn't affect them.

Admittedly in the 'states there's this whole perception of slavery as some Aztec style squalor-and-murder arrangement, but there's a lot of different flavours of it and the consistent thread is that abusing your workers is a bad idea.

For instance, a lot of armies have an arrangement where people join up for, oh, four years or so, and when they get out the army pays for their university tuition.

So... a person goes over a contract, and signs away 90% of their life for the next four years in exchange for something they want or to work off a debt.

I wonder what that sounds like?
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Uhm. No. I wasn't going to say that. I am saying this though: its not fair for the majority of your paycheck to go to a random person that is getting benefits because he or she is lazy.

"It's a safety net, not a hammock"?
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 9:46 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
The Greeks had a saying regarding slavery; IIRC, it was something like "freedom means freedom to starve".

It also means freedom to donate money to people poorer than you, but that's irrelevant.

There's a word for a person who never has to worry about losing their job or their house or their food; 'slave'.

Still, quite a few people in the world probably wouldn't mind that; after all, they've already got someone else paying for all their needs (the government) so making things a little more personal probably wouldn't affect them.

Admittedly in the 'states there's this whole perception of slavery as some Aztec style squalor-and-murder arrangement, but there's a lot of different flavours of it and the consistent thread is that abusing your workers is a bad idea.

For instance, a lot of armies have an arrangement where people join up for, oh, four years or so, and when they get out the army pays for their university tuition.

So... a person goes over a contract, and signs away 90% of their life for the next four years in exchange for something they want or to work off a debt.

I wonder what that sounds like?
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Uhm. No. I wasn't going to say that. I am saying this though: its not fair for the majority of your paycheck to go to a random person that is getting benefits because he or she is lazy.

"It's a safety net, not a hammock"?

Donating is hardly irrelevant; thinking that means you haven't quite seen the power of human kindness (that sounds too soft for me, but someone has to say, and it might as well be me).
Now, I can't really tell if all that was sarcasm or not; I am treating this as an agreement (try to stick to the point, and I can better debate). Anyways, yeah, I think the system should be a safety net, not a hammock (that was brilliant, by the way), but you have to fall some distance before you hit that net.
Permalink
| June 14, 2013, 9:50 pm
Other topics
student teen kid toy play lego child video game hobby blocks construction toy legos fun games



LEGO models my own creation MOCpages toys shop The International Fan of LEGO Debate ClubOther


You Your home page | LEGO creations | Favorite builders
Activity Activity | Comments | Creations
Explore Explore | Recent | Groups
MOCpages is an unofficial, fan-created website. LEGO® and the brick configuration are property of The LEGO Group, which does not sponsor, own, or endorse this site.
©2002-2014 Sean Kenney Design Inc | Privacy policy | Terms of use