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The Debate: Round 2
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I'm adding this due to the fact that the first part of the conversation has gotten uber-long.
Permalink
| December 3, 2011, 11:59 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Mudskipper 4
I'm adding this due to the fact that the first part of the conversation has gotten uber-long.

OK! I was actually planning on doing this soon anyway, ;)> (smiley with a beard!)
Permalink
| December 4, 2011, 4:15 pm
 Group admin 
1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?
2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.
3. How did trilobites go extinct?
4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You'd think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.
5. How can we see objects farther than 6000 light-years away?
6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?
7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.
8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?
9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!
10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?
11. What happened to the placoderms?
12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?
13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?
14. What happened to the dinosaurs?
15. If all animals were herbivorous before Adam sinned, what did deep-sea animals that live so far underwater that photosynthesis is not possible eat?
16. Genesis 2:20 "So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." How long did it take him to name all those animals? And "...Adam gave names to all cattle, ..." suggests that he wasn't just naming the species but each individual. Just doing that could take millions of years!
17. Why are there so few species of nautiloids left? On the subject of shelled cephalopods, hod did Ammonites go extinct?
18. Why don't we ever find fossils of humans and pre-human animals together?
19. Genesis 2:4 "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," This is in clear contradiction to the first chapter of Genesis, in which it describes the creation of Earth in six days, not one.
20. Where did all the water go after the Great Flood?
21. Consider whales for a moment. Wouldn't it be so much more logical to make them breath water? And wouldn't it be more logical to have them either have hind flippers or else not give them a pelvis? Why is the arrangement of their flipper bones so much like land mammals' feet? Why not make the flippers like fish fins instead? In fact, why not make whales fish?
22. Why wasn't God more creative in his creation, for instance, why not give some fish feathers? Or two-headed snakes, that would be exciting. Or maybe he could have created six legged mice? Or green mammals? Why not?
23. If, after the flood, all the animals were in the mountains of Ararat, how did non-flying or swimming animals come to the Americas, Australia, and Antarctica?
24. How did Pterosaurs go extinct?
25. Genesis 1:6-7 "Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Where is that firmament? No, it is certainly not a sphere of water around the Earth that collapsed to make Noah's flood, it is mentioned later in the Bible, for instance Daniel 12:3 "Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."
26. What about Archaeopteryx, you can't deny that it looks like a halfway between dinosaurs and birds, especially considering that most small dinosaurs had feathers.
27. Look at the following fossil animals: Hyracotherium, Orohippus, Epihippus, Mesohippus, Miohippus, Kalobatippus, Parahippus, Merychippus, Hipparion, Pliohippus, Dinohippus, Plesippus, and the modern horse. Doesn't that look like evolutionary progression?
28. While we're on the subject, why do we find transitional fossils at all?
29. Why do blind fish have eyes?
30. Why did God make Cosmic Background Radiation?
31. How did marine reptiles go extinct? They could easily survive the Flood, and would be very difficult to hunt.
32. Before Darwin published his Origin of the Species, Christian scientists had to come up with different theories of Earth's history than what is seen in the Bible to explain how old the Earth looked. All new evidence gathered since Darwin's book has supported the Earth being much older than 6000 years and species gradually changing over the course of Earth's history.
33. Why did God create mammal-like reptiles (synapsids, no they're not really reptiles) like a half-way between mammals and reptiles, rather than making the more mammal like of them mammals and the more reptile like of them reptiles?
34. Why did God make almost all native mammals to Australia marsupials?
35. Fish are enormously common today, and live practically everywhere in the ocean. How come none are found in the Burgess Shale?
36. Several small dinosaurs had feathers and wings similar to birds (most of them could not fly, some could glide but most just had the wings for display, Microraptor however actually could fly). Some examples are Velociraptor, Anchiornis, Protarchaeopteryx, and Pedopenna (Pedopenna also had leg structure remarkably similar to birds).
37. If God really wanted us to believe the Genesis creation account literally, why would he put so much evidence against it in the world? Why would he make it self-contradictory?

If you haven't heard of any of the above mention critters, feel free to ask!

"Consider this: Your beliefs describe a the model of a small, brief universe in which mankind under God has a central role. The model of the Universe built by science is vast beyond our understanding, old beyond our comprehension, complex beyond any possibility of our ever understanding even a fraction of the whole. Which model is closer to the mind of God? " ~From plesiosaur.com
Permalink
| December 4, 2011, 4:18 pm
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Question 1

1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?

Article 1

The Bible indicates in several places that the universe has been “stretched out” or expanded. For example, Isaiah 40:22 teaches that God “stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” This would suggest that the universe has actually increased in size since its creation. God has stretched it out. He has expanded it (and is perhaps still expanding it). This verse must have seemed very strange when it was first written. The universe certainly doesn’t look as if it is expanding. After all, if you look at the night sky tonight, it will appear about the same size as it did the previous night, and the night before that. Ancient star maps appear virtually identical to the night sky today. Could the universe really have been expanded? It must have been hard to believe at the time.
In fact, secular scientists once believed that the universe was eternal and unchanging. The idea of an expanding universe would have been considered nonsense to most scientists of the past. It must have been tempting for Christians to reject what the Bible teaches about the expansion of the universe. Perhaps some Christians tried to “reinterpret” Isaiah 40:22, and read it in an unnatural way so that they wouldn’t have to believe in an expanding universe. When the world believes one thing, and the Bible teaches another, it is always tempting to think that God got the details wrong, but God is never wrong.
Most astronomers today believe that the universe is expanding. This expansion is a very natural result of the physics that Einstein discovered—general relativity. Moreover, there is observational evidence that the universe is indeed expanding. In the 1920s, astronomers discovered that virtually all clusters of galaxies appear to be moving away from all other clusters (see creation in-depth box at the bottom); this indicates that the entire universe is expanding.
This effect can be illustrated with points on a balloon. As the balloon is inflated, all points move farther away from each other (see illustration at left). If the entire universe were being stretched out, the galaxies would all be moving away; and that is exactly what they appear to be doing. It is interesting that the Bible recorded the notion of an expanding universe thousands of years before secular science came to accept the idea.

Article 2

First, a guess must be made concerning rates of change in the past. When God placed the stars in the sky, there was instant expansion! Therefore, present rates of change should not be used to try to interpret the distant past.
Second, extrapolation may not be taken beyond the actual beginning point. If the universe is 10,000 years old, that must be the limit of extrapolation. Expansion of the universe is just one possible explanation for the redshift of starlight. If this theory is correct, God surely has his own purposes for creating a universe in outward motion. Perhaps it provides stability: In a static universe, gravity would cause all galaxies to eventually collapse inward.

Permalink
| December 4, 2011, 9:58 pm
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Questions 2 - 5


2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.

True. They call that microevolution, i.e., evolution within a species but never between species. The viruses are still viruses at the end of the day. Darwin’s finches are a perfect example of microevolution, which I definitely believe in.

3. How did trilobites go extinct?

Well, the proetida is not extinct. But even if they did, what does it matter? It’s not support for or against creation.

4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren’t there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You’d think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.

Here is an overwhelming response. Evolutionists just don’t want to admit it.

(See following comment for links)


5. How can we see objects farther than 6,000 light years away?

(See following comment for links)


Frankly, this is an extremely complicated subject that has not yet been solved by either side, so I suggest we leave off what we do not understand. Nonetheless, if you continue to bring up questions about it, I will do my best to answer.

6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?

In reality this really presents no problem for a creationist view. So God gave a couple types of snakes “legs”, which really aren’t legs.

As quoted from an article: “If I were a member of the evolutionist cult, I would avoid this example, even if those small bones had proven to be remnants of legs; however, we know that the bones in boas are not remnants of legs. These alleged legs are tiny claw-like structures near the base of the tail. Although they are not entirely understood, they appear to be related to the boa’s sexual functions. The male actually uses them to sexually stimulate the female. Positing that these tiny structures were vestigial legs is foolishness.
Furthermore, the bones that have been interpreted as remnant legs apply only to hind legs. Are they suggesting that boa constrictors walked upright with two legs and had no arms? This would make for an amusing image. Perhaps the mindless designer of the evolutionist cult failed to provide them with front legs and made the rear legs go away for symmetry’s sake. That, of course, is devolution, not evolution. Of course, if this devolution took place, a mindless designer would have to explain why there was a problem with the original design in the first place.”


I’ll continue on the rest of your questions later, but they will all be in several-question “chunks” like this one.

Permalink
| December 4, 2011, 10:19 pm
Sorry for the separate links. Apparently Mocpages has a bug and when I add a link it makes the comment run out of the comment box, rendering sentences partially unreadable. It appears I will have to follow this method of attaching the links in a separate comment going forward. I am sorry for the inconvenience.
Permalink
| December 4, 2011, 10:23 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Questions 2 - 5


2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.

True. They call that microevolution, i.e., evolution within a species but never between species. The viruses are still viruses at the end of the day. Darwin’s finches are a perfect example of microevolution, which I definitely believe in.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
3. How did trilobites go extinct?

Well, the proetida is not extinct. But even if they did, what does it matter? It’s not support for or against creation.
Proetida is extinct and I don't know what source you have that says its not, but it is inaccurate. It is evidence against creation because such a diverse and successful group of animals would not be extinct in just 10000 years since its creation.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren’t there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You’d think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.

Here is an overwhelming response. Evolutionists just don’t want to admit it.

(See following comment for links)
I'll look at it.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
5. How can we see objects farther than 6,000 light years away?

(See following comment for links)


Frankly, this is an extremely complicated subject that has not yet been solved by either side, so I suggest we leave off what we do not understand. Nonetheless, if you continue to bring up questions about it, I will do my best to answer.
I'll look at the below explanations.

Quoting Mudskipper 4
6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?

In reality this really presents no problem for a creationist view. So God gave a couple types of snakes “legs”, which really aren’t legs.

As quoted from an article: “If I were a member of the evolutionist cult, I would avoid this example, even if those small bones had proven to be remnants of legs; however, we know that the bones in boas are not remnants of legs. These alleged legs are tiny claw-like structures near the base of the tail. Although they are not entirely understood, they appear to be related to the boa’s sexual functions. The male actually uses them to sexually stimulate the female. Positing that these tiny structures were vestigial legs is foolishness.
But why give only boas and pythons structures that look like legs and not give them to any other snakes? The other snakes get along very well without legs!
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Furthermore, the bones that have been interpreted as remnant legs apply only to hind legs. Are they suggesting that boa constrictors walked upright with two legs and had no arms? This would make for an amusing image. Perhaps the mindless designer of the evolutionist cult failed to provide them with front legs and made the rear legs go away for symmetry’s sake. That, of course, is devolution, not evolution. Of course, if this devolution took place, a mindless designer would have to explain why there was a problem with the original design in the first place.”
We have fossils of snakes with prominent hind legs, however, the certainly never walked upright. The forelegs disappeared before the hind legs, and thus we only find hind legs on boas and pythons.
And no, that is not devolution, devolution is transferring from one species (say a chicken) into an ancestral species (say a small theropod dinosaur). They were there in the first place because they came from legs! The legs disappeared because the snakes didn't need them.
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 8:02 am
 Group admin 
The Ica stones are fake: http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/259/jurassic_library_the_ica_stones.html

The sauropod cave painting is a mud stain: http://news.discovery.com/animals/creationism-dinosaur-drawing-cave-110325.html

Most of the rest look like mythical beasts imagined by creative people.

The farthest object we can see is 13,200,000,000 (striking how close to the age of the universe (which, I might add, was reasoned to be 13.7 billion before that galaxy was discovered) that is, isn't it?). The universe (according to Creationism) is 10,000 years old. Then, by a simple calculation, the speed of light should decay by one million, three hundred and twenty times per year. Don't you think we'd be able to notice that?

And now for the other explanation. The gravity well.
Quoting answersingenesis.org
In that case, the earth would be in a gravitational well. This term means that it would require energy to pull something away from our position into deeper space. In this gravitational well, we would not “feel” any extra gravity, nonetheless time would flow more slowly on earth (or anywhere in our solar system) than in other places of the universe. This effect is thought to be very small today; however, it may have been much stronger in the past. (If the universe is expanding as most astronomers believe, then physics demands that such effects would have been stronger when the universe was smaller).
So you have to propose a strange form of gravity centralized at the earth that affects only time, not space and time as ordinary gravity does...
Quoting answersingenesis.org This being the case, clocks on earth would have ticked much more slowly than clocks in deep space. Thus, light from the most distant galaxies would arrive on earth in only a few thousand years as measured by clocks on earth.
...And the gravity gets stronger the farther away from Earth you get (meaning time goes slower the farther away you get).
Quoting answersingenesis.org This idea is certainly intriguing. And although there are still a number of mathematical details that need to be worked out, the premise certainly is reasonable. Some creation scientists are actively researching this idea.
"We're still working on the math and everything, but we'll get it figured out!" That's the about the same stage inflation theory is at, so I'll use your own logic against you: It hasn't been fully explained mathematically, so therefore its wrong.

Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 9:04 am
To you guys, you have to understand the fact that the people who wrote about the begining weren't actually there, so some things oppose other things, but that is humankind's confusion.
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 9:58 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Yapdap The Batdude
To you guys, you have to understand the fact that the people who wrote about the begining weren't actually there, so some things oppose other things, but that is humankind's confusion.

So then we look at the evidence.
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 10:32 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JPfan65 Studios

Out Of All Of Those...Number 4 Is The One That Really Urks Me...If Dinosaurs Somehow Existed When The First Humans Arrived...Then (Like Mudskiper 4 Said Before Me I Belive) Wouldn't There Be Cave Paintings Of Them On The Insides Of Caves Primitive Humans Lived In? I Mean, Come On, Think! They Had Enough Trouble With The Animals Living In The Area They Were Living In...But Let Just Say A Adult Tyrannosaurus Rex (Or Other Carnivore) Charges On A Family Of Them...That Would Have Disastrous Results...
Yes! Yes! Dinosaurs would be the only ones left, not the variety of animals we see today. You know, a pride of lions tries to attack an ankylosaurus, BOoM! Half of them are dead in one blow.
A Tyrannosaurus decides to hunt an elephant, easy prey, the elephant doesn't know how to fen off an attack from a larger animal.
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 10:42 pm
The biggest point: God wants us to forget logic, and just believe. He made all of these things that contradict him, because of that fact, thus, logic can not explain all things. How does a bee fly? A bee's weight is too great for its wings, yet it flies.
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 10:44 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Yapdap The Batdude
The biggest point: God wants us to forget logic, and just believe. He made all of these things that contradict him, because of that fact, thus, logic can not explain all things. How does a bee fly? A bee's weight is too great for its wings, yet it flies.

So logic doesn't work...? Or God is illogical? Either one is a big problem...
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 10:54 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JPfan65 Studios

Baryonx VS Grizzly Bear...Nuff' Said....

Or Hainosaurus (my new buddy icon =D) vs. a whale... The list goes on.. Just to rub it in on us modern, docile animals: Amhicoelias vs. any modern animal....
Permalink
| December 5, 2011, 11:01 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
So logic doesn't work...? Or God is illogical? Either one is a big problem...

Logic mimics the illusion of contol.
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 8:00 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Yapdap The Batdude
Logic mimics the illusion of contol.

..So God really has the illusion of control?
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 9:44 am
 Group admin 
Quoting JPfan65 Studios

We Should Have A Convo About This =) ....And Isn't Hainosaurus A Marine Reptile & Not A Dinosaur?

In this group I think it'd be a little off topic..Why don't I reopen the General Conversation and we could take it there. And yes, Hainosaurus is actually a mosasaur! But whatever mosasaurs were the marine equivalent of dinosaurs during the Cretaceous.
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 9:48 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Question 1

1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?

Article 1

The Bible indicates in several places that the universe has been “stretched out” or expanded. For example, Isaiah 40:22 teaches that God “stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” This would suggest that the universe has actually increased in size since its creation. God has stretched it out. He has expanded it (and is perhaps still expanding it). This verse must have seemed very strange when it was first written. The universe certainly doesn’t look as if it is expanding. After all, if you look at the night sky tonight, it will appear about the same size as it did the previous night, and the night before that. Ancient star maps appear virtually identical to the night sky today. Could the universe really have been expanded? It must have been hard to believe at the time.
In fact, secular scientists once believed that the universe was eternal and unchanging. The idea of an expanding universe would have been considered nonsense to most scientists of the past. It must have been tempting for Christians to reject what the Bible teaches about the expansion of the universe. Perhaps some Christians tried to “reinterpret” Isaiah 40:22, and read it in an unnatural way so that they wouldn’t have to believe in an expanding universe. When the world believes one thing, and the Bible teaches another, it is always tempting to think that God got the details wrong, but God is never wrong.
Most astronomers today believe that the universe is expanding. This expansion is a very natural result of the physics that Einstein discovered—general relativity. Moreover, there is observational evidence that the universe is indeed expanding. In the 1920s, astronomers discovered that virtually all clusters of galaxies appear to be moving away from all other clusters (see creation in-depth box at the bottom); this indicates that the entire universe is expanding.
This effect can be illustrated with points on a balloon. As the balloon is inflated, all points move farther away from each other (see illustration at left). If the entire universe were being stretched out, the galaxies would all be moving away; and that is exactly what they appear to be doing. It is interesting that the Bible recorded the notion of an expanding universe thousands of years before secular science came to accept the idea.
I bet that that verse did not seem strange when it was originally written, after all, it could easily mean that it was stretched out when it was created, thus providing space for people and animals to live in.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Article 2

First, a guess must be made concerning rates of change in the past. When God placed the stars in the sky, there was instant expansion! Therefore, present rates of change should not be used to try to interpret the distant past.
Second, extrapolation may not be taken beyond the actual beginning point. If the universe is 10,000 years old, that must be the limit of extrapolation. Expansion of the universe is just one possible explanation for the redshift of starlight. If this theory is correct, God surely has his own purposes for creating a universe in outward motion. Perhaps it provides stability: In a static universe, gravity would cause all galaxies to eventually collapse inward.

But why wouldn't he just make the stars fly in random directions? Or inward together, that would make an easy end to the universe after God had finished his purposes.
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 10:05 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
..So God really has the illusion of control?

No, God really has control. Humans want to be the best, so they convince themselves, usually subconciously, that they are in contol. Master Oogway puts it well in Kung Fu Panda. If you haven't seen it, you should watch it.
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 4:40 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Yapdap The Batdude
No, God really has control. Humans want to be the best, so they convince themselves, usually subconciously, that they are in contol. Master Oogway puts it well in Kung Fu Panda. If you haven't seen it, you should watch it.

I have seen it, but its been a while, could you remind me?
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 6:46 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I have seen it, but its been a while, could you remind me?

He says how you can plant the seed, but no matter how much you want that peach seed to be an apple or orange it will come out as a peach. You can not dictate when it bears fruit, either.
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 9:31 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Yapdap The Batdude
He says how you can plant the seed, but no matter how much you want that peach seed to be an apple or orange it will come out as a peach. You can not dictate when it bears fruit, either.

I remember! Thanks.. Wait.. how is that relevant to the group again?
Permalink
| December 6, 2011, 10:10 pm
 Group admin 
Where'd everyone go?
Permalink
| December 12, 2011, 7:56 pm
 Group admin 
Just for the record I'd like to prove that the Leviathan and the Behemoth mentioned in Job are not dinosaurs or other prehistoric reptiles, more likely they are mythical beasts, or perhaps a crocodile and a hippo respectively.
The leviathan is often sighted as a plesiosaur, mosasaur, or sarcosuchus. However, there is a simple way to prove this wrong: Job 41:18-21 "Its [the Leviathan's] snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth. "
^This clearly describes the Leviathan as fire-breathing, which is a characteristic certainly not possessed by any plesiosaur, mosasaur, or sarcosuchus.

The behemoth is harder, but I'll give it a go.
The behemoth is commonly cited as some kind of sauropod (long-necked) dinosaur.
Here's my proof against that
Job 40:21-22 "Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth. " No sauropods were small enough to lay concealed under lotuses or to hide among reeds, and furthermore, sauropods had mouths that would not withstand a surge of the Jordan.
A hippopotamus, however, can lay concealed under lotuses and hide among reeds, and has an impressive mouth.
Now you use Job 40:17 "Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. " and point out that a hippo's tail isn't comparable to a cedar. Well, for one thing, the animal described here could be a mythical beast, or this could mean 'trunk' and the behemoth might be an elephant.

http://www.answersincreation.org/job4041a.htm
Permalink
| December 13, 2011, 11:56 pm
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Questions 7 - 13


7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.

God created them at the same time. According to the NASB, Genesis 1:11 is “Then God said ‘Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind…’” It’s a minor difference in translation, but not a problem. There are certainly things that man has discovered over time and that they have named. For example, the word dinosaur wasn’t created until the 1800’s. It doesn’t mean that dinosaurs weren’t created; just that man calls them something different from what God originally called them. God may not have considered mosses, ferns, etc. to be plants.

8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?

He might have done it on either day. Scripture is not clear on exactly what kind of animals He created which days. But either way, the amphibians are still covered.

9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!

The animals were created first. This is a nutshell synopsis of the last couple days of creation. God made the animals from the ground, and He brought them to Adam. Adam named them, and God showed him during that time that none of the animals were suitable helpers for Adam. Then, the chapter proceeds to say, God made Eve. Don’t read this out of context or overcomplicate it. The point Gods making in this section is not when he created animals, but that man needs woman for a helpmeet.

10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?

He decided to. Why would God create dinosaurs when He knew they wouldn’t survive? I would venture to say that a Tyrannosaurus Rex was pretty good competing against other reptiles. Who am I to question the Creators decisions?

11. What happened to the placoderms?

They went extinct.

12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?

As to the whole 6,000 light years question, I already provided several explanations for this. The fact is, nobody really understands it. You don’t, I don’t, and scientists don’t. For us to deliberate on a subject that no one has proven and no one yet fully understands is rather foolish. If the scientific greats don’t get it yet, then how could we?

13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?

There were no dinosaurs in the area when the tar pits were there. Very few dinosaur fossils have been found in California at all, so it logically follows that if only a few dinosaurs were ever in California, they had a good chance of not falling into one small are of tar pits.

Permalink
| December 15, 2011, 1:13 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Mudskipper 4
Reply to Bob the Inconceivably Invincible - Questions 7 - 13


7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.

God created them at the same time. According to the NASB, Genesis 1:11 is “Then God said ‘Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind…’” It’s a minor difference in translation, but not a problem. There are certainly things that man has discovered over time and that they have named. For example, the word dinosaur wasn’t created until the 1800’s. It doesn’t mean that dinosaurs weren’t created; just that man calls them something different from what God originally called them. God may not have considered mosses, ferns, etc. to be plants.
I see your point, but I think its much more logical if you say the definition of 'seed' has changed, not the definition of 'plant'. ;)
Quoting Mudskipper 4
8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?

He might have done it on either day. Scripture is not clear on exactly what kind of animals He created which days. But either way, the amphibians are still covered.
It seems to me that the most probable reason for not mentioning when the amphibians were created is because the author didn't know about their amphibious lifestyle. If he didn't know that, how could he know the history of the universe?
Quoting Mudskipper 4
9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!

The animals were created first. This is a nutshell synopsis of the last couple days of creation. God made the animals from the ground, and He brought them to Adam. Adam named them, and God showed him during that time that none of the animals were suitable helpers for Adam. Then, the chapter proceeds to say, God made Eve. Don’t read this out of context or overcomplicate it. The point Gods making in this section is not when he created animals, but that man needs woman for a helpmeet.
I know that is the point that this section is making, but it clearly states that the animals were created after man, in obvious contradiction with the first chapter which states that the animals were created first. I'm not trying to overcomplicate it, I'm noting a contradiction.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?

He decided to. Why would God create dinosaurs when He knew they wouldn’t survive? I would venture to say that a Tyrannosaurus Rex was pretty good competing against other reptiles. Who am I to question the Creators decisions?
On that subject, how didn't the dinosaurs survive? They were so much bigger and stronger than anything alive today.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
11. What happened to the placoderms?

They went extinct.
No doubt about that, but how?
Quoting Mudskipper 4
12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?

As to the whole 6,000 light years question, I already provided several explanations for this. The fact is, nobody really understands it. You don’t, I don’t, and scientists don’t.
..But they do have a pretty good idea of what happened, it matches all the evidence...
Quoting Mudskipper 4 For us to deliberate on a subject that no one has proven and no one yet fully understands is rather foolish. If the scientific greats don’t get it yet, then how could we?
If they didn't understand this would be a good point.
Quoting Mudskipper 4
13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?

There were no dinosaurs in the area when the tar pits were there. Very few dinosaur fossils have been found in California at all, so it logically follows that if only a few dinosaurs were ever in California, they had a good chance of not falling into one small are of tar pits.
I have an easy explanation for the lack of dinosaurs in California, it was under water when they were alive. I ask you, why weren't there any dinosaurs in that area?

Permalink
| December 19, 2011, 10:12 am
 Group admin 
You probably think that the only reason why scientists do not believe the Creation account is because they are atheist and need an alternative theory. Well think again: 45% of scientists believe in God and only 5% believe in a literal interpretation of the first few chapters of Genesis. If there really was such good scientific evidence for a literal interpretation, wouldn't those 40% of scientists believe in it? They already believe a literal interpretation of most of the rest of the Bible.
Permalink
| December 20, 2011, 6:49 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Tivo Scabs

Wait, in the Bible, it elaborates on the subject of Eve being created from Adam. It says that God made Eve from one of Adam's ribs. WHAT!? Firstly, the mass of a single rib cannot possibly be translated into an entire human, it's simply impossible. Secondly, Adam would need serious medical help if he were missing a rib.
It's a good point but unfortunately easily refutable. But since I'm on your side in this group, I'll leave that to Mudskipper.

Permalink
| December 20, 2011, 7:08 pm
 Group admin 
I find it interesting that when fossils are dated, the make sense in an evolutionary progression; if all those animals lived at the same time, and all the fossils were laid down in the flood, we'd expect to find them in a haphazard, pretty much random order.
Explain that, if you will.
Permalink
| January 1, 2012, 12:37 pm
 Group admin 
Doesn't it seem more symmetric if the Bible begins with a metaphorical account of earth's beginning and ends with a metaphorical account of earths end, as apposed to beginning the a literal account of earth's beginning and ending with a metaphorical account of earth's end?
Permalink
| January 8, 2012, 9:37 pm
 Group admin 
What is the best proof of Creation you can come up with?
Permalink
| January 26, 2012, 12:34 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?
2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.
3. How did trilobites go extinct?
4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You'd think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.
5. How can we see objects farther than 6000 light-years away?
6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?
7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.
8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?
9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!
10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?
11. What happened to the placoderms?
12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?
13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?
14. What happened to the dinosaurs?
15. If all animals were herbivorous before Adam sinned, what did deep-sea animals that live so far underwater that photosynthesis is not possible eat?
16. Genesis 2:20 "So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." How long did it take him to name all those animals? And "...Adam gave names to all cattle, ..." suggests that he wasn't just naming the species but each individual. Just doing that could take millions of years!
17. Why are there so few species of nautiloids left? On the subject of shelled cephalopods, hod did Ammonites go extinct?
18. Why don't we ever find fossils of humans and pre-human animals together?
19. Genesis 2:4 "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," This is in clear contradiction to the first chapter of Genesis, in which it describes the creation of Earth in six days, not one.
20. Where did all the water go after the Great Flood?
21. Consider whales for a moment. Wouldn't it be so much more logical to make them breath water? And wouldn't it be more logical to have them either have hind flippers or else not give them a pelvis? Why is the arrangement of their flipper bones so much like land mammals' feet? Why not make the flippers like fish fins instead? In fact, why not make whales fish?
22. Why wasn't God more creative in his creation, for instance, why not give some fish feathers? Or two-headed snakes, that would be exciting. Or maybe he could have created six legged mice? Or green mammals? Why not?
23. If, after the flood, all the animals were in the mountains of Ararat, how did non-flying or swimming animals come to the Americas, Australia, and Antarctica?
24. How did Pterosaurs go extinct?
25. Genesis 1:6-7 "Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Where is that firmament? No, it is certainly not a sphere of water around the Earth that collapsed to make Noah's flood, it is mentioned later in the Bible, for instance Daniel 12:3 "Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."
26. What about Archaeopteryx, you can't deny that it looks like a halfway between dinosaurs and birds, especially considering that most small dinosaurs had feathers.
27. Look at the following fossil animals: Hyracotherium, Orohippus, Epihippus, Mesohippus, Miohippus, Kalobatippus, Parahippus, Merychippus, Hipparion, Pliohippus, Dinohippus, Plesippus, and the modern horse. Doesn't that look like evolutionary progression?
28. While we're on the subject, why do we find transitional fossils at all?
29. Why do blind fish have eyes?
30. Why did God make Cosmic Background Radiation?
31. How did marine reptiles go extinct? They could easily survive the Flood, and would be very difficult to hunt.
32. Before Darwin published his Origin of the Species, Christian scientists had to come up with different theories of Earth's history than what is seen in the Bible to explain how old the Earth looked. All new evidence gathered since Darwin's book has supported the Earth being much older than 6000 years and species gradually changing over the course of Earth's history.
33. Why did God create mammal-like reptiles (synapsids, no they're not really reptiles) like a half-way between mammals and reptiles, rather than making the more mammal like of them mammals and the more reptile like of them reptiles?
34. Why did God make almost all native mammals to Australia marsupials?
35. Fish are enormously common today, and live practically everywhere in the ocean. How come none are found in the Burgess Shale?
36. Several small dinosaurs had feathers and wings similar to birds (most of them could not fly, some could glide but most just had the wings for display, Microraptor however actually could fly). Some examples are Velociraptor, Anchiornis, Protarchaeopteryx, and Pedopenna (Pedopenna also had leg structure remarkably similar to birds).
37. If God really wanted us to believe the Genesis creation account literally, why would he put so much evidence against it in the world? Why would he make it self-contradictory?

If you haven't heard of any of the above mention critters, feel free to ask!

"Consider this: Your beliefs describe a the model of a small, brief universe in which mankind under God has a central role. The model of the Universe built by science is vast beyond our understanding, old beyond our comprehension, complex beyond any possibility of our ever understanding even a fraction of the whole. Which model is closer to the mind of God? " ~From plesiosaur.com
dinosaurs and people did live at the same time there was a few mentionings in the bible they're not alive now cause Noah couldn't fit them on the Ark and they drowned in the flood!

Permalink
| March 7, 2012, 9:05 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?
2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.
3. How did trilobites go extinct?
4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You'd think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.
5. How can we see objects farther than 6000 light-years away?
6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?
7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.
8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?
9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!
10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?
11. What happened to the placoderms?
12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?
13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?
14. What happened to the dinosaurs?
15. If all animals were herbivorous before Adam sinned, what did deep-sea animals that live so far underwater that photosynthesis is not possible eat?
16. Genesis 2:20 "So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." How long did it take him to name all those animals? And "...Adam gave names to all cattle, ..." suggests that he wasn't just naming the species but each individual. Just doing that could take millions of years!
17. Why are there so few species of nautiloids left? On the subject of shelled cephalopods, hod did Ammonites go extinct?
18. Why don't we ever find fossils of humans and pre-human animals together?
19. Genesis 2:4 "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," This is in clear contradiction to the first chapter of Genesis, in which it describes the creation of Earth in six days, not one.
20. Where did all the water go after the Great Flood?
21. Consider whales for a moment. Wouldn't it be so much more logical to make them breath water? And wouldn't it be more logical to have them either have hind flippers or else not give them a pelvis? Why is the arrangement of their flipper bones so much like land mammals' feet? Why not make the flippers like fish fins instead? In fact, why not make whales fish?
22. Why wasn't God more creative in his creation, for instance, why not give some fish feathers? Or two-headed snakes, that would be exciting. Or maybe he could have created six legged mice? Or green mammals? Why not?
23. If, after the flood, all the animals were in the mountains of Ararat, how did non-flying or swimming animals come to the Americas, Australia, and Antarctica?
24. How did Pterosaurs go extinct?
25. Genesis 1:6-7 "Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Where is that firmament? No, it is certainly not a sphere of water around the Earth that collapsed to make Noah's flood, it is mentioned later in the Bible, for instance Daniel 12:3 "Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."
26. What about Archaeopteryx, you can't deny that it looks like a halfway between dinosaurs and birds, especially considering that most small dinosaurs had feathers.
27. Look at the following fossil animals: Hyracotherium, Orohippus, Epihippus, Mesohippus, Miohippus, Kalobatippus, Parahippus, Merychippus, Hipparion, Pliohippus, Dinohippus, Plesippus, and the modern horse. Doesn't that look like evolutionary progression?
28. While we're on the subject, why do we find transitional fossils at all?
29. Why do blind fish have eyes?
30. Why did God make Cosmic Background Radiation?
31. How did marine reptiles go extinct? They could easily survive the Flood, and would be very difficult to hunt.
32. Before Darwin published his Origin of the Species, Christian scientists had to come up with different theories of Earth's history than what is seen in the Bible to explain how old the Earth looked. All new evidence gathered since Darwin's book has supported the Earth being much older than 6000 years and species gradually changing over the course of Earth's history.
33. Why did God create mammal-like reptiles (synapsids, no they're not really reptiles) like a half-way between mammals and reptiles, rather than making the more mammal like of them mammals and the more reptile like of them reptiles?
34. Why did God make almost all native mammals to Australia marsupials?
35. Fish are enormously common today, and live practically everywhere in the ocean. How come none are found in the Burgess Shale?
36. Several small dinosaurs had feathers and wings similar to birds (most of them could not fly, some could glide but most just had the wings for display, Microraptor however actually could fly). Some examples are Velociraptor, Anchiornis, Protarchaeopteryx, and Pedopenna (Pedopenna also had leg structure remarkably similar to birds).
37. If God really wanted us to believe the Genesis creation account literally, why would he put so much evidence against it in the world? Why would he make it self-contradictory?

If you haven't heard of any of the above mention critters, feel free to ask!

"Consider this: Your beliefs describe a the model of a small, brief universe in which mankind under God has a central role. The model of the Universe built by science is vast beyond our understanding, old beyond our comprehension, complex beyond any possibility of our ever understanding even a fraction of the whole. Which model is closer to the mind of God? " ~From plesiosaur.com
God didn't say he created them from the ground. He did create them first!

Permalink
| March 7, 2012, 9:08 pm
Quoting Jamus Prime
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
1. Why did God create the universe so that it is expanding?
2. Evolution has been observed in viruses.
3. How did trilobites go extinct?
4. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there any cave paintings of dinosaurs? Or historical records? You'd think such large and powerful animals would be very significant to early humans.
5. How can we see objects farther than 6000 light-years away?
6. Why would God give boas and pythons vestigial hind legs, but not give any to other snakes?
7. It says in Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so." When did God create non-seed bearing plants? You know, like ferns, mosses, and horsetail.
8. Did God create amphibians with the aquatic animals or with the land animals?
9. Genesis 2:18-19 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name." But wait a second, it said in chapter 1 that the animals were created first!
10. Why would God create the diverse array of jawless fish we see in fossil records, if He knew they couldn't compete with modern fish?
11. What happened to the placoderms?
12. If we look 6000 light-years away from the earth, shouldn't we see stars, galaxies, and planets being created?
13. How come there are no dinosaurs in the La Brea Tar Pits?
14. What happened to the dinosaurs?
15. If all animals were herbivorous before Adam sinned, what did deep-sea animals that live so far underwater that photosynthesis is not possible eat?
16. Genesis 2:20 "So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." How long did it take him to name all those animals? And "...Adam gave names to all cattle, ..." suggests that he wasn't just naming the species but each individual. Just doing that could take millions of years!
17. Why are there so few species of nautiloids left? On the subject of shelled cephalopods, hod did Ammonites go extinct?
18. Why don't we ever find fossils of humans and pre-human animals together?
19. Genesis 2:4 "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," This is in clear contradiction to the first chapter of Genesis, in which it describes the creation of Earth in six days, not one.
20. Where did all the water go after the Great Flood?
21. Consider whales for a moment. Wouldn't it be so much more logical to make them breath water? And wouldn't it be more logical to have them either have hind flippers or else not give them a pelvis? Why is the arrangement of their flipper bones so much like land mammals' feet? Why not make the flippers like fish fins instead? In fact, why not make whales fish?
22. Why wasn't God more creative in his creation, for instance, why not give some fish feathers? Or two-headed snakes, that would be exciting. Or maybe he could have created six legged mice? Or green mammals? Why not?
23. If, after the flood, all the animals were in the mountains of Ararat, how did non-flying or swimming animals come to the Americas, Australia, and Antarctica?
24. How did Pterosaurs go extinct?
25. Genesis 1:6-7 "Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so." Where is that firmament? No, it is certainly not a sphere of water around the Earth that collapsed to make Noah's flood, it is mentioned later in the Bible, for instance Daniel 12:3 "Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."
26. What about Archaeopteryx, you can't deny that it looks like a halfway between dinosaurs and birds, especially considering that most small dinosaurs had feathers.
27. Look at the following fossil animals: Hyracotherium, Orohippus, Epihippus, Mesohippus, Miohippus, Kalobatippus, Parahippus, Merychippus, Hipparion, Pliohippus, Dinohippus, Plesippus, and the modern horse. Doesn't that look like evolutionary progression?
28. While we're on the subject, why do we find transitional fossils at all?
29. Why do blind fish have eyes?
30. Why did God make Cosmic Background Radiation?
31. How did marine reptiles go extinct? They could easily survive the Flood, and would be very difficult to hunt.
32. Before Darwin published his Origin of the Species, Christian scientists had to come up with different theories of Earth's history than what is seen in the Bible to explain how old the Earth looked. All new evidence gathered since Darwin's book has supported the Earth being much older than 6000 years and species gradually changing over the course of Earth's history.
33. Why did God create mammal-like reptiles (synapsids, no they're not really reptiles) like a half-way between mammals and reptiles, rather than making the more mammal like of them mammals and the more reptile like of them reptiles?
34. Why did God make almost all native mammals to Australia marsupials?
35. Fish are enormously common today, and live practically everywhere in the ocean. How come none are found in the Burgess Shale?
36. Several small dinosaurs had feathers and wings similar to birds (most of them could not fly, some could glide but most just had the wings for display, Microraptor however actually could fly). Some examples are Velociraptor, Anchiornis, Protarchaeopteryx, and Pedopenna (Pedopenna also had leg structure remarkably similar to birds).
37. If God really wanted us to believe the Genesis creation account literally, why would he put so much evidence against it in the world? Why would he make it self-contradictory?

If you haven't heard of any of the above mention critters, feel free to ask!

"Consider this: Your beliefs describe a the model of a small, brief universe in which mankind under God has a central role. The model of the Universe built by science is vast beyond our understanding, old beyond our comprehension, complex beyond any possibility of our ever understanding even a fraction of the whole. Which model is closer to the mind of God? " ~From plesiosaur.com
God didn't say he created them from the ground. He did create them first!
oh he did but he did create them first he was just saying that he created them out of the ground at FIRST.

Permalink
| March 7, 2012, 9:12 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Jamus Prime
oh he did but he did create them first he was just saying that he created them out of the ground at FIRST.

Read Genesis Chapter 2 and you may want to revise that conclusion.
Permalink
| April 10, 2012, 8:02 pm
Oh, there was already a big convo here. Will the discussion from the BCBS be continued here?
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 5:03 am
Oh, and Bob's arguments are pretty cool, while the others have no real proof and their arguments haven't made so much sense.
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 5:21 am
One question I want to ask the evolutionists: where did data come from? Like all the information in DNA come from? Where did logic and math come from? It's not evidently found in nature. Animals have instinct.

Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 6:37 am
Quoting Chris Pole
One question I want to ask the evolutionists: where did data come from? Like all the information in DNA come from? Where did logic and math come from? It's not evidently found in nature. Animals have instinct.


Do you say now these things don't really exist or do you say god magically made them? Because that would be the argument for their existence of the creationists anyway.
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 6:49 am
Quoting Vorred 03

Do you say now these things don't really exist or do you say god magically made them? Because that would be the argument for their existence of the creationists anyway.

No, I'm saying they exist. I'm saying evolution could not come up with this, but some form of intelligence must have come up with it.
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 7:03 am
Quoting Chris Pole
No, I'm saying they exist. I'm saying evolution could not come up with this, but some form of intelligence must have come up with it.


Then I don't understand what intelligence came up with that intelligence and so on..
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 7:49 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Chris Pole
One question I want to ask the evolutionists: where did data come from? Like all the information in DNA come from? Where did logic and math come from? It's not evidently found in nature. Animals have instinct.

As a Christian evolutionist, this question is easy for me to answer: God designed the universe to have order.
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 8:21 am
Quoting Vorred 03

Then I don't understand what intelligence came up with that intelligence and so on..

So what I mean that God is that intelligence. Only something with features of intelligent design comes out of someone with intelligence. Sort of like how we, intelligent beings, create models, structures and so on out of Lego. Throwing bricks together doesn't result in some form of structure.
And Bob, I agree. It's God's work. I don't agree with evolution though.
However, I only added this comment just to see how evolutionists who don't believe in God (or something similar) and just think that everything occured by chance would respond.
That's all :)
Permalink
| July 6, 2012, 8:59 am
Bob, you asked what the best proof for Creationism is. Well, I think that it is the argument from dependency. So what I mean is that every thing on earth is dependent on something else for its existence. This computer I'm typing on is dependent on Acer for its production. I don't know who made this desk, but somebody did. I come from my parents. My parents come from their parents. It goes on and on. Everything comes from something else. Now if the world came from a big Nothing, that would break the natural order we've seen, in which everything has dependency on something else for existence. That's why I don't believe in a 'Big Bang' theory in which everything comes from nothing. I do believe in evolution - microevolution. Not macroevolution though. Okay, there's my two cents worth.
Permalink
| March 24, 2014, 12:40 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Chris Pole
So what I mean that God is that intelligence. Only something with features of intelligent design comes out of someone with intelligence. Sort of like how we, intelligent beings, create models, structures and so on out of Lego. Throwing bricks together doesn't result in some form of structure.
And Bob, I agree. It's God's work. I don't agree with evolution though.
However, I only added this comment just to see how evolutionists who don't believe in God (or something similar) and just think that everything occured by chance would respond.
That's all :)
Exactly! I find evolution without God to be about as plausible as six-day creation without God.

Permalink
| April 26, 2014, 7:02 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting James Prins
Bob, you asked what the best proof for Creationism is. Well, I think that it is the argument from dependency. So what I mean is that every thing on earth is dependent on something else for its existence. This computer I'm typing on is dependent on Acer for its production. I don't know who made this desk, but somebody did. I come from my parents. My parents come from their parents. It goes on and on. Everything comes from something else. Now if the world came from a big Nothing, that would break the natural order we've seen, in which everything has dependency on something else for existence. That's why I don't believe in a 'Big Bang' theory in which everything comes from nothing. I do believe in evolution - microevolution. Not macroevolution though. Okay, there's my two cents worth.

I have never made the claim that the Big Bang came from nothing - indeed, this argument is a highly compelling argument for the existence of God, but that is a completely different question from the question of whether six-day creation is true.

Permalink
| April 26, 2014, 7:05 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Vorred 03

Then I don't understand what intelligence came up with that intelligence and so on..

God, by definition, has no origin.
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| April 26, 2014, 7:05 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
I have never made the claim that the Big Bang came from nothing - indeed, this argument is a highly compelling argument for the existence of God, but that is a completely different question from the question of whether six-day creation is true.


OK, if it seemed like I said you claimed that the Big Bang came from nothing, that was an unintentional mistake in my writing. Secondly, I think that to debate 'Creationism' vs. 'Evolutionism' is to in a way debate the existence of God. In the more heated debates the Evolutionists seem to be trying to demonstrate how the world might have come into being by the theory of Evolution as apart from the concept of God, and the Creationists coming back and showing how God is necessary for the world's existence. I think that both questions (Creation/Evolution and Theism/Atheism) are in fact closely related; if there is a God then He most certainly would be the Creator of the world. If there is no God then He certainly didn't have anything to do with the creation of the world. It's just that I've often seen that Creationism vs. Evolutionism debates are another way of debating Theism vs. Atheism. That's why I answered you with an argument for God's existence. I think that it's close to the root of the matter, if not the actual question, that we are debating in this group. Hope this clarifies what I meant in my first comment, and have a great day!
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| April 26, 2014, 11:46 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting James Prins

OK, if it seemed like I said you claimed that the Big Bang came from nothing, that was an unintentional mistake in my writing.
OK, sorry. I just wanted to make it clear what I believed.
Quoting James Prins
Secondly, I think that to debate 'Creationism' vs. 'Evolutionism' is to in a way debate the existence of God. In the more heated debates the Evolutionists seem to be trying to demonstrate how the world might have come into being by the theory of Evolution as apart from the concept of God, and the Creationists coming back and showing how God is necessary for the world's existence. I think that both questions (Creation/Evolution and Theism/Atheism) are in fact closely related;
Consider this: You could, by scientific laws, explain quite well how the Earth came to be in its present state from the Creation, even in the timescale you accept as 6000 years. Of course, that would say nothing about the existence of God, because he obviously created everything and set in place the physical laws. This is true whether the initial creation was 6000 years ago, or 13.7 billion, or some more distant date. So atheist evolutionists, no matter how much they might wish it, do nothing to refute the existence of God by explaining the unfolding of the scientifically. If anything, the existence of scientific laws and of a universe to explain with those laws only provides more evidence for the existence of a Creator.
Quoting James Prins if there is a God then He most certainly would be the Creator of the world. If there is no God then He certainly didn't have anything to do with the creation of the world.
Quite natural, but God could have easily used evolution rather than six-day creation to bring about the world in its present from.
Quoting James Prins
It's just that I've often seen that Creationism vs. Evolutionism debates are another way of debating Theism vs. Atheism. That's why I answered you with an argument for God's existence. I think that it's close to the root of the matter, if not the actual question, that we are debating in this group. Hope this clarifies what I meant in my first comment, and have a great day!
Thankyou for explaining your point of view, I found it very interesting.
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| April 27, 2014, 10:16 pm
I love this debate! I do have several questions for the Evolutionists/Atheists out there. I am sorry if any of these topics were covered in previous posts....

1) What caused the Big Bang?
2) What was before the Big Bang?
3) Scientifically, how can something come out of nothing?
4) Scientifically, how can you prove there are human rights?
5) If nature has the strong preying on and killing the weak, why is torture for fun and Nazism wrong? Why do we not live like that?
6) Couldn't you argue that your belief there is no God is actually a statement of faith? Faith that there is no God.
7) If your life came without purpose and your ending is without purpose, wouldn't the intellectually honest thing to say to yourself is that, if these statements are true, then my life is without purpose?
Permalink
| May 5, 2014, 1:38 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Wells Garrison
I love this debate!
I'm glad, so do I.
Quoting Wells Garrison I do have several questions for the Evolutionists/Atheists out there.
You do realize the two are far from equivalent. I'm a Christian, but I find the evidence for evolution overwhelmingly convincing and I don't find it contrary to any precepts of my faith.
Quoting Wells Garrison
1) What caused the Big Bang?
2) What was before the Big Bang?
Scientific knowledge hasn't advance far enough to answer those questions. The answer is, we don't know yet, but that doesn't make the questions unanswerable.
Quoting Wells Garrison
3) Scientifically, how can something come out of nothing?
It cannot.
Quoting Wells Garrison
4) Scientifically, how can you prove there are human rights?
5) If nature has the strong preying on and killing the weak, why is torture for fun and Nazism wrong? Why do we not live like that?
6) Couldn't you argue that your belief there is no God is actually a statement of faith? Faith that there is no God.
These are good questions. I'm not an atheist, so I won't attempt to answer them.
Quoting Wells Garrison
7) If your life came without purpose and your ending is without purpose, wouldn't the intellectually honest thing to say to yourself is that, if these statements are true, then my life is without purpose?
This is a great question. If you consider everything from an atheistic viewpoint, no matter what you do with your life, you'll die. And everyone you know will die, the human race will go extinct, and eventually the universe will decay into degenerate matter. So ultimately, nothing you do matters at all. Why not just do drugs and party until you die of overdose?

Permalink
| May 7, 2014, 9:03 pm
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting Wells Garrison
I love this debate!
I'm glad, so do I.
Quoting Wells Garrison I do have several questions for the Evolutionists/Atheists out there.
You do realize the two are far from equivalent. I'm a Christian, but I find the evidence for evolution overwhelmingly convincing and I don't find it contrary to any precepts of my faith.
Quoting Wells Garrison
1) What caused the Big Bang?
2) What was before the Big Bang?
Scientific knowledge hasn't advance far enough to answer those questions. The answer is, we don't know yet, but that doesn't make the questions unanswerable.
Quoting Wells Garrison
3) Scientifically, how can something come out of nothing?
It cannot.
Quoting Wells Garrison
4) Scientifically, how can you prove there are human rights?
5) If nature has the strong preying on and killing the weak, why is torture for fun and Nazism wrong? Why do we not live like that?
6) Couldn't you argue that your belief there is no God is actually a statement of faith? Faith that there is no God.
These are good questions. I'm not an atheist, so I won't attempt to answer them.
Quoting Wells Garrison
7) If your life came without purpose and your ending is without purpose, wouldn't the intellectually honest thing to say to yourself is that, if these statements are true, then my life is without purpose?
This is a great question. If you consider everything from an atheistic viewpoint, no matter what you do with your life, you'll die. And everyone you know will die, the human race will go extinct, and eventually the universe will decay into degenerate matter. So ultimately, nothing you do matters at all. Why not just do drugs and party until you die of overdose?


Permalink
| May 29, 2014, 1:50 pm
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