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The Eurobricks' Finest Affair...
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 Group admin 
Just to make this discussion open to all. It has been brought to my attention by several people, that the Eurobricks team had posted several mocs for second round, before they posted all the mocs for first round.

For the most part they were posted on mocpages and in their private group. Except for one moc, they did not post in the main group until they had posted the last two mocs for the first round.

However, the URL numbers on the mocs of contention show that they were posted before the last two for first round.

We are still debating the point and waiting for one of the judges to put in their thoughts.

The line in the rules that is of contention is:

"Players do not need to build in every category, but the entire team must build in all 30 categories before you can build in a category a second time. You can speed ahead as much as you like. But, your team may not duplicate any of the 30 categories UNTIL all 30 have been covered."

The spirit of this was to allow faster builders to keep building, but not post until all thirty had been posted in the first round. At which point they could post said mocs for the second round. However, that isn't how this reads. It does state build in part of the rules, then contradicts itself further down with the 'speed ahead' part.

So what we are looking at at this time is intention of the builders, and to where they posted the mocs. We have been using their group posting (which you don't have access to) to look at when they were posted in the games. Rather than when they were posted on mocpages (the URL number). Technically they are not entered into the games until they are posted into their group and the official group. However, as I have free access to their group, and can judge from there, then their posting into their group can be considered an entry. Mocs that were posted into their group after (irregardless of URL) the two mocs (five man and clone wars) are being allowed at this time.

I would strongly suspect that most of the teams built ahead, but were just careful to not get caught ;-) So we are trying to be as lenient as possible, but still be fair to the other teams and hold to the spirit of the games, which is to get people building.

So pansies of the Moc Athalon - what do you think? Should they stay or should they go? I would like a little more input in this as it is a rather large decision. This decision could potentially impact the outcome of the games, but more importantly impact the spirit of the games...

So, put down your thoughts here. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, then email me doc069(at)gmail.com and I will post them under my name on your behalf.

Regards, and in the spirit of building.

Lee Jones
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:13 am
Quoting Lee Jones
So, put down your thoughts here.


If any team posted a round 2 entry, before they were done with their round 1, they should be disqualified or lose points or something along those lines. I'm not just saying that because they have top points, I would even say that even if my team broke the rules in this way. Now of course my team is organized enough so we wouldn't make any mistakes like that, but thats another story... :)

~Flare
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:18 am
Let them stay. It is a contest, not an election for president. If it were, I would have voted for Leda!
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:22 am
Quoting Flare .

If any team posted a round 2 entry, before they were done with their round 1, they should be disqualified or lose points or something along those lines. I'm not just saying that because they have top points, I would even say that even if my team broke the rules in this way. Now of course my team is organized enough so we wouldn't make any mistakes like that, but thats another story... :)

~Flare

I feel the same way.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:23 am
 Group admin 
I think that any MOC not entered in the main contest group is NOT an entry. If they tried to smuggle them in at the last minute, the URL code would be sufficient evidence for DQ, but as it is, the team didn't enter those MOCs (except for one, which has been DQed) in the game.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:39 am
Quoting Yuri Fassio
I think that any MOC not entered in the main contest group is NOT an entry. If they tried to smuggle them in at the last minute, the URL code would be sufficient evidence for DQ, but as it is, the team didn't enter those MOCs (except for one, which has been DQed) in the game.


Hmmm... I think we need some clarification of which MOCs were supposedly round 2 ones that were entered too early, etc.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:44 am
The thing is, the people who posted theirs too early were both in a time zone 6 to 7 hours ahead of the Eastern time deadline. They waited until past midnight to post, so I don't think it's fair to DQ them for that. None of this was done to get an unfair advantage, they just wanted to make sure the hard work they did on the last day got in.

We will be fine with any decision, but I feel that as it was simply an honest mistake (and probably one that won't really matter anyway, as I'm sure we don't have the most overall points.) the entries should count.

Regardless, thanks so much for holding this great contest guys, we had a ton of fun! :-)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:52 am
Quoting Philip Stark
The thing is, the people who posted theirs too early were both in a time zone 6 to 7 hours ahead of the Eastern time deadline. They waited until past midnight to post, so I don't think it's fair to DQ them for that. None of this was done to get an unfair advantage, they just wanted to make sure the hard work they did on the last day got in.

We will be fine with any decision, but I feel that as it was simply an honest mistake (and probably one that won't really matter anyway, as I'm sure we don't have the most overall points.) the entries should count.

Regardless, thanks so much for holding this great contest guys, we had a ton of fun! :-)


Shouldn't they wait until the other round 1 entries are done though? It doesn't make sense why they would post their round 2s before round 1s.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:55 am
First of all, thanks for hosting this great contest! It was really nice and I learnt to build in many new themes. I know the judges will have a hard time now judging/counting everything.

I'll explain why I added my entry before the 30th was uploaded.

Quoting Yuri Fassio
I think that any MOC not entered in the main contest group is NOT an entry. If they tried to smuggle them in at the last minute, the URL code would be sufficient evidence for DQ, but as it is, the team didn't enter those MOCs (except for one, which has been DQed) in the game.

That would be mine. I read in our group that pictures of the last entries were taken. And pictures of the 30th one also, so I started building on an entry for the second round. It took me all afternoon and at around 21h (my time: Brussels) I uploaded my entry to be sure of it. At that point there was still no sign of the last and 30th entry of the first round. I said in the general topic on our group page that I was ready, but I wasn't sure if I could already add it to the groups.

At 23.15 (I think this was 6.15pm on MOCpages?) I added my creation to the groups because there was still no sign of the 30th entry. I wasn't sure if this was allowed, but I was sure the 30th entry could be uploaded any minute. I had three options: add it at 23.15h, stay up all night and wait for the 30th entry or add it in the morning. I couldn't stay up all night because just had school, waiting for the next day would be stupid. But adding it to the groups at night (in my time zone) was also stupid...

Of course I made a mistake and so it seems my entry should be disqualified. I feel actually very bad for my mistake, but as judges you have to act equal for everybody. It's just very hard when you live in different time-zones and I just couldn't stay up all night to wait on that 30th entry.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:08 pm
Basically, we had the builds done for the round 1 entries, the final 2 just weren't posted yet because we had to finish the pictures.

Barney (Who lives in England) built 5 or 6 entries on the last day, and added them to our group in the afternoon because it was already after midnight there, and he wanted to have them ready to be easily added to the MOCathlon group once our last 2 entries were posted, not knowing that he should have just waited and done both groups at one. He didn't add them to the MOCathlon group until our final 2 round 1 entries were posted.

Hope that clears it up. :-)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:10 pm
Quoting Philip Stark
Basically, we had the builds done for the round 1 entries, the final 2 just weren't posted yet because we had to finish the pictures.

Barney (Who lives in England) built 5 or 6 entries on the last day, and added them to our group in the afternoon because it was already after midnight there, and he wanted to have them ready to be easily added to the MOCathlon group once our last 2 entries were posted, not knowing that he should have just waited and done both groups at one. He didn't add them to the MOCathlon group until our final 2 round 1 entries were posted.

Hope that clears it up. :-)


OK, well, if I got to vote, I'd say you guys are clean. :)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:15 pm
Firstly, apologies for the violation. It wasn't aimed to unfairly advantage my team, but ease the burden of real life issues, such as much-necessary sleep.

Quoting Flare .
Shouldn't they wait until the other round 1 entries are done though? It doesn't make sense why they would post their round 2s before round 1s.

See Flare, it does.
Uploading to MOCpages is a very slow process for me - and I don't really want to do this for 7 MOCs late at night, waiting up for another entry to permit me to do so. Hence, I feel I was justified in uploading them before all the others were entered.

Emphasis on ‘entered’.

From the rules -
"All entries must be posted in the MOCathalon group AND the team group page to be judged."
I hadn't posted into the MOCathalon group, implying I did not want them to be judged and that therefore they were not entered.

Posting them into our group was to let the others know what categories had already been done at a glance; we’ve been communicating on EB, and in the MOCpages thread, and, given how slow MOCpages is for some of us, it’s easier just to look at the pictures/descriptions than yet another list of categories in an already crowded thread.

So no attempt to be dishonest, just an attempt to maintain sanity as we start the week. I appreciate your effort in running the contest, whichever way the decision goes =) Much enjoyed.

Cheers,
Barney

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:19 pm
Quoting Flare .

OK, well, if I got to vote, I'd say you guys are clean. :)
Thanks Flare, appreciate it. :-)

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:24 pm
I don't think they have done anything wrong except find a loophole in the rules, which clearly states:
All entries must be posted in the MOCathalon group AND the team group page to be judged.

If they were not posted in the MOCathalon group then they were not yet an official entry, regardless of what time they posted them on the pages. If they were added to the MOCathalon group after their round one was finished then I don't see what the problem is.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 12:53 pm
It's my contention that any team who says they weren't building ahead is being dishonest. My interpretation of the rules was that this was ok, just not to post them until all 1st rounders were in. I don't necessarily have a problem with the way they went about it, not posting in the contest group but only their team group. It may be a stretch of the rule, but I see what they were doing. I see no malice or intent to cheat, just semantics. However, I will point out, that many teams had members dealing with time issues; our team had a member in Australia and one in Arizona (where they don't recognize daylight savings) and we still managed. Many people were disqualified for stretching or not meeting category rules, so a part of me thinks this is similar. The rule was not to 'upload', which can take time; they could have created easily uploadable Word files instead, which, I feel, would not have violated any rules while expediting the process for them. There, I think I covered both arguments. Chalk this one up as another 'fine-tuning' that the contest needs. I don't feel too strongly, either way, and respect whatever decision the judges come to.~H
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:14 pm
Quoting Keith Goldman
I'm unclear about something: Did Eurobricks finish round 1 at all? If they did, I say let the order of uploading go and let them continue. If they did not finish round 1, just DQ the 2nd round entries and get on with it.

30 from the first round, 11 from the second. So yes, we completed the full 30.

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:24 pm
Yes, like Barney said, all 30 were finished and 11 from round 2.


Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:27 pm
My 'Real Vehicle' entry was posted before the 30 were complete. When I posted it I found one of my team-mates had posted a RV entry just before me, but I posted anyway in lieu of the fact we knew we would definately complete all 30. There wasn't any scheming involved!

As such I uploaded my vehicle to our group page and held off uploading it to the main contest page. Due to scruntiny I've held off uploading it to the main contest page so am unsure of it's fate.

As mentioned above I'm sure many competitors had additional models ready to go. Whats important here is we definately had our 30.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:36 pm
Thank you very much Mr. Goldman! :-)

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:36 pm
I'm myself are from Germany and know about the time zones. Sven and Stefan are too in "my" time zone, but we decided to post MOCs directly into our intern group and the official Moc Athalon group - I want to say: We act in accordance with the time zone, like many other teams or members, who aren't from Northern America too. In this point I have to agree with Hans!
I think it would be unfair for the other teams to do nothing, what I'm not want to impute the judges!
Maybe it is a "grey zone" according to the official rules - but in my opinion it is a breaking with, quote of Lee: "The spirit of the games"
And how this should go on next year? I think, whatever decisions are made now, this would overshadow the next games - only my opinion.
I hope you understand what I'm meaning with it.

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:39 pm
Please don't say that we were breaking the spirit of the games. This was in no way done to get an advantage.

It makes me feel a bit sad to have my team accused of cheating like this, we just want to have fun and move on.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:47 pm
Quoting Philip Stark
Please don't say that we were breaking the spirit of the games. This was in no way done to get an advantage.

It makes me feel a bit sad to have my team accused of cheating like this, we just want to have fun and move on.


Sorry, but in my opinion it look a little bit like this, sorry for my honesty - it is not against you or your team personally!
I think it is obviously strange to post ten or more entries, even before finishing the first cycle!
I would have understand it, if you, for example built the models, taken the photos and prepared the presentation for immediately posting, after finishing round 1.
But probably this is only my opinion...

In addition, maybe I didn't pointed it out (probably):
I don't want you to accuse and even not that you are disqualified! I only want to state my opinion - Like I said, it is nothing against you and your team, rather I have the biggest respect for you all and your stunning MOCs and your awesome work!!!

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 1:54 pm
Don't worry about it Kevin, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. :-)

I just want you to know that we in no way wanted to cheat or anything, it was just an honest mistake.

Thanks a lot for the kind words, your MOCs are lovely as well, and I think your team deserves to win. :)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:13 pm
Quoting Philip Stark
Please don't say that we were breaking the spirit of the games. This was in no way done to get an advantage.

It makes me feel a bit sad to have my team accused of cheating like this, we just want to have fun and move on.

We don't accuse you of cheating. We're pretty sure, you don't meant to cheat, and also we don't want you to get disqualified. But in the beginning there were some harsh decisions, Mark Kelso for example didn't meant to cheat too and was disqualified. Though I think that no more discussion is necessary cause everything has cleared up in this thread.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:15 pm
Thanks for your positive remarks Kevin.

This is my first MOCathlon and it seems a very serious contest indeed.

I can't help but feel some of our teams problems are my fault: due to unforseen and unavoidable circumstances my entries were delayed. My apologies to my fellow team-mates and everyone involved.

Hopefully a positive resolution can be agreed upon and we'll all be the wiser for next year.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:17 pm
Sorry, what do time zones have to do with it? Tell me!
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:21 pm
Quoting pedro ™

Hopefully a positive resolution can be agreed upon and we'll all be the wiser for next year.


Indeed - I think we all will be wiser!
It was the first Moc Athalon and hopefully not the last - the first time is always the most difficult ;-)

Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:29 pm
Quoting Chuke Lapman
Sorry, what do time zones have to do with it? Tell me!

Well, when it's here 23.15h on MOCpages it's 6.15pm. So I waited because I thought other members of my team live where it isn't so late already, those who had to upload the final entries. I couldn't wait any longer because I had to sleep while other members still had enough time to upload their entries.

Anyway, awesome contest and I would love to participate next year. I'm sure we'll work these problems out next year. ;)
(Seems like my long comment, explaining my disqualified entry didn't come through.)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 2:36 pm
Thanks for opening this discussion up to the greater community. The input has been interesting. We did not attempt to gain any unfair advantage. I even contacted Barney after posting the 30th entry so he could post his second round entries and go to bed.

If I was to suggest anything for the future it would be to limit the competition to one round only. This would stop a few dramas, and most importantly encourage Quality over Quantity. I can see how some people will become better builders by building more often (I certainly got a lot out of new categories), however racing through some categories with sub par creations in order to get to the next round doesn't really promote good building to me. We had to do this on one or two, and I am sure other teams had to as well.

As KG said, lets just get on with the fun.
I had a blast, seeya at the next MOCAthalon.
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 4:31 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Keith Goldman


Enough with the drama, lets resolve this quickly and get on with it. I've still got like 30 models to review.

Only 30? Phew! I've almost 60 of them to do! (STUCKpages...)
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 7:35 pm
Quoting Yuri Fassio
Only 30? Phew! I've almost 60 of them to do! (STUCKpages...)


And my steampunk toilet is probably the last one. XD Oh well!
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 7:52 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Hans Dendauw
It's my contention that any team who says they weren't building ahead is being dishonest.


Agreed.

Lee
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:06 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Philip Stark
Please don't say that we were breaking the spirit of the games. This was in no way done to get an advantage.

It makes me feel a bit sad to have my team accused of cheating like this, we just want to have fun and move on.


Sigh. It makes me feel sad too. Sorry if it comes across as accusing your team of cheating. I look at cheating as more of an intent, and I don't feel that your team's intention was to break the rules.

This game has be fraught with errors - with the vast majority of them being due to our (judges) ability to convey our thoughts clearly. Our inability to close the loopholes.

Each time there has been an error of interpretation, we have given the benefit of the doubt to the player(s) in question.

The spirit of these games was, and is, building - pure and simple. The rules are there to help keep the playing field fair and level.

The spirit of the the games is building. The spirit of the section of the rules in question, was meant to be to allow for building ahead. However, that a team could not post in the games a second round until the first round was done. This is the spirit, the wording came across a bit different. The joys of trying to come up with all these rules and categories; refine them, then post them in a week. Mistakes happen.

I am sure many teams built ahead, the just didn't get caught like Eurobricks did. I am sure if we investigated enough we could find many mocs that we could go back on and DQ - the proof we need is in the private threads. However, that goes against the grain of the games. It has broken my heart enough times to go through and DQ mocs for various breaches of the rules, which for the most part were easy point out. Some not so much, this one even less so.

This is a bit grey I feel. I had discussed this in detail with both Dave (on the phone) and Chris (on IM) and convinced them both that we should DQ the mocs for breach of the rules. The were playing Devil's Advocate as it were; however, what I was really doing was throwing every argument of theirs out and giving mine (again I was fighting for DQ in this debate - just to make this an open conversation), and I won the debate. Interestingly, I don't want to DQ the moc (nor do Dave and Chris for that matter) what I was doing in both of these conversations was listening to my own argument and their response to it.

In all fairness, there was no way they could win the argument. The letter of the rules is clear - it clearly states "build". This rule was broken - intentional or not.

I promised to uphold the spirit of this game - that is what I promised Chris. And "Rules are for the obedience of fools. And the guidance of wise men (& women)." Sir David Ogilvy (1911-1999). I cannot in good conscience DQ these mocs based on another wording mistake by us judges. If I do, then I am breaking my promise to Chris - and it takes something much bigger than rules/laws to make me break a promise.

Majority now states that the mocs stand - there is no DQ. I know Chris and Dave will not have a problem - like I said - I convinced them of the wisdom of disqualifying these mocs.

Thanks for your input, I needed to know the player's point of view before I made my final decision as to where to put my vote.

Regards,

Lee Jones
Permalink
| March 15, 2010, 11:46 pm
Thank you so much! I'll be able to sleep tonight, I felt so bad yesterday when I found out.

I really appreciate it, and I'm sure the rest of the team will agree with me. You guys did a fantastic job with the contest, and I'm happy that we can end it on a good note. :-)

Next time around, we'll make sure to do everything correctly.

Many thanks,

Philip
Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 12:34 am
Thank you for the in depth description behind the tough decision making between Dave, Chris and yourself. We appreciate all the efforts from the staff and judges to come to what seems like a fair and balanced response. We are in no way seeking special treatment and you have allowed us to state our case of which I and the team are most grateful. we shall stand by your final decision and once again thank you for running this massive contest, of which there was bound to be first time issues. In a perfect world we would have had our first 30 posted then post the extras, but of course that was not the case at this time.

I think I speak for my team in saying we understand that the main reason first and foremost for running a competition is to involve people and to all share in the many creations that minds around the world can come up with. Any prizes that are awarded to the winning team will naturally act as an incentive towards achieving first place, however its really just icing on the cake for most of us, who simply enjoy the challenge of working in a team to produce great MOC's.

Cheers
Josh


Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 12:36 am
So, it should have read "post" rather than "build"? This makes sense as players building ahead is pretty much impossible to police.
Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 8:27 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Chuke Lapman
So, it should have read "post" rather than "build"? This makes sense as players building ahead is pretty much impossible to police.

Correct, and exactly.

Lee
Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 9:50 am
Thanks for the decision, makes it feel like those long hours paid off =)

And once again, thanks for running the contest, much appreciated!
Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 2:40 pm
My comment never made it through but it said something to the effect of "If they posted in their own group and NOT the competition group than they should be good to go."
Permalink
| March 16, 2010, 3:59 pm
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